In Defense of... You'll Never Guess... 4.14 metaey thing.

[ht_murray]

I dont' like to post reviews or read recaps until I've had a good couple hours to chat with my BFFs to make sure I'm not completely speaking from a place of defensive angst, lol, but now that I've done that I do have a thing to say....



Okay, first. I do not believe that what he said at the end of this episode was in any way influenced by the siren.


The first victim said what? That he knew exactly what he was doing.

What Dean said fell completely in line with what he was obviously telegraphing throughout the entire episode, starting with Sam's not so sneaky call to Ruby at the beginning. I believe that Dean said exactly what he meant.

So, I can't have double standards. I can't say, the first victim knew exactly what he was doing and Dean said exactly what he meant, but Sam's diatribe was somehow clouded by the Siren. I just can't go that.

I'll admit, I feel a hella lot betrayed by what he said. After he spent all that time convincing Dean to talk and let everything out, he took that information and told Dean exactly what Dean had been afraid of. That his emotions make him weak. Hmm, blast from the past much? I think I said the exact same thing last week. I'm a broken record. *sob*

However, I can totally understand why Sam feels this way. Let's forget the whole Ruby and demon blood, demon destiny, blah, blah, demon ANYTHING influence. If your brother was A) going to Hell and you can't stop it no matter what you do, B) IN Hell and you can't bring him back, and C) back from Hell but in so much pain over what happened there that you don't have a clue what to do to fix him? Then you're going to have a whole lot of unresolved IRRATIONAL rage. Feelings do not have to be rational to be real. Nor is rage anything inhuman. So yeah, he said what he meant, what he's feeling, but he only feels that way because he's so completely impotent in the face of all things Dean, and he lashes out, therefore, at DEAN. I think it's the same ineffectiveness he feels in the face of Dean's trauma that drives him to push his powers into high gear. It also makes him incapable of seeing just how badly that's turning out.

All that being said... and this is where all my fellow Dean girls can turn away, also anyone who doesn't like speculation... I'm pretty sure Kripke's going to go down exactly the road they've been telegraphing since Day 1. Sam's going to overstep his bounds and end up at the bottom of that slippery slope before long.




I said you could leave, lol. This is where I do a little speculating.




My speculation's always wrong.




Last chance to leave before Two-Face shows up.







But, it could go either way. Dean's not only admitted that he wishes he couldn't feel anything but in the last two episodes he's been pretty much bitch-slapped for showing he's human and sometimes weak. It's one thing to have demons hit you with that. It's their job. It's another thing entirely to be hit with it from people you actually care about. I don't know if he's going to be able to deal with any of his crap at all now. He basically has the option to shut up and bear it all on his own or get rid of it somehow. I have a slight fear (or maybe it's a tingle, I dunno) that, if he found a way to get rid of it, he'd be one evil son of a bitch, because that remorse is pretty much all that's left of his humanity.

I doubt that will happen, and lately the writers haven't been big on plot twists, unless they're dodging the anvils they're dropping. Yes, I have read what Kripke's original plan for Season 3 was. I don't know if that's still the plan. Hopefully, there's still a whole other season left to plot, SO.

Now, before you throw rotten tomatoes, I can see this happening. But. It. Won't. So, Dean girls, don't glare at me and tell me what a cheap bait and switch that will be and how you will hate it. Just take it as me saying, nothing is standing out to me with flashing neon lights and saying, "This is how it's going to go."

I still have faith, and as much as I hate all the angst and character bashing and whining in general, I want to see what happens.

I just had the urge to say. Peace. Out. Been watching too many Dark Angel repeats... *headdesk*

Comments

[lexie-sinistra.livejournal.com]

***APPLAUDS**** I am a Dean girl but I agree with you. What they said they knew they were doing. Like the previous guys knew too. This is all going to lead to the major blow out that we know is coming. Siren induced or not, that fist a cuffs fight was just a tip of the ice berg.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Totally. There's no way things are going to smooth out through just talking and being there for each other after the words have now been wielded as weapons. This is going to come to more than blows. All the stops are going to be pulled out. And I'll cringe the whole time, because it will hurt my soul, but it's not like I can just walk away. *smooshes*

[tabularassa.livejournal.com]

They need to talk it out, cos it's bullshit. They both meant it, and WTF? OMG

LMAO Yeah.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

That's the problem. Now that they've talked and Sam's wielded the words against Dean, I don't think it's an option to talk it out anymore. I think that's officially off the table and it's just going to be a power struggle from here on out. Which makes me verrry verry sad. But also a little tingly, cuz sometimes I twisted like that.

[maboheme.livejournal.com]

I don't know if he's going to be able to deal with any of his crap at all now. He basically has the option to shut up and bear it all on his own or get rid of it somehow.

This got to me the most. Sam's the one who forced him to open up and then he goes and throws that back in his face. Dean won't be dealing well with this.

You make a good point with the bait and switch possibility. It's so obviously being set up to go one way, and it would absolutely make sense to go the other way, you know, to be a surprise and all.

What was Kripke's original S3 plan?

Also, you make good excuses for Sam, many of which I can fanwank so. But really I'm not really in a Sam-forgiving mood right now, just cause this reminded me of prideful!Season1 Sam which I really hated. But you're reasonings do make sense. Although I still think he's a cold-hearted ass right now.

ETA: Cause I can't spell. Grrr.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Firstly, I don't want to spoil. I dunno if you can access this or not, but here's (http://community.livejournal.com/dean_sam/7318336.html#cutid1) a discussion about Kripke's intentions for season 3.

I spent pretty much all night being angry with Sam, too. And there were thoughts of violence. I chatted with my friends, and I checked out a couple reviews which said exactly what I feared they would. Most people are mad at Sam and then there's the Sam girls (not all of them, just a few) who think they're doing him a favor by saying, STFU you stupid Dean girls. LOL. Not really presenting a good argument or defense of their boy at all.

And I believe without a doubt he knew what he was saying, but I made myself consider why he felt that way when he's the one who's asked Dean to bare his soul time and again. So now I understand better. I'd still probably cheered too loudly when Dean got the upper hand in that fight, though. But I think Dean can't help but love him anyway, and I gotta at least try to understand it.

I'd actually kinda like to see the switcheroo, but I really don't think they'll go there.

[ewanspotter.livejournal.com]

I don't blame Sam any more than I blame Dean. But, I take their comments as more... truthiness than actual fact. Yes, they said what they meant, no ifs ands or buts about that. But their emotions were also exaggerated. You get angry at someone you scream at them and tell you you wish they were dead. In your heart, in no way do you actually want them dead. You say it, and you know you're saying it and at the time you think you believe it, but it's not true.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Yup, I totally get what you're saying. But you know what my hubby always says to me when we get in a fight? (And it pisses me off to no end, but still...) He says, "You wouldn't have said that if you hadn't been thinking it." And he's usually right, TO A DEGREE. So, Sam might not think that Dean's sitting around feeling sorry for himself, but he does think Dean's emotional trauma is a weakness that's keeping them from making any headway against Lilith. And what Dean said? Well, we were all thinking it, right? I can't help but think he meant it. Of course, he didn't mean to kill Sam with an axe, but he did mean what he said about Sam's actions. And to be honest, Sam had it coming.

[smidirini.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think just like Dean, Sam clearly told the truth when inder the call of the siren, but I think Sam would never, ever have said those things to Dean in that hurtful way if there hadn't been a spell. He would know how bad it would be for Dean to hear that and he wouldn't deliberately lash out to hurt like that - not about hell. I think Sam is almost as touchy about that as Dean is. ... Same way Dean would never pick up an axe with the intentions of killing Sam on a normal day, no matter how crazy he was driving him :P

[angels3.livejournal.com]

Well Sam's a bitch! I DO NOT want him to ask Dean what's wrong, or how he feels or talk about shit ever again. I don't care what his issues are to be honest with you.

This is the second time Dean has done everything for him and had it thrown in his face, and this time was ten times worse after Anna told him to talk about it too.

So when he leans even more heavily on Castiel and withdraws from Sam, shuts down even more Sam will honestly have no one to blame for himself.

Obviously either he's forgotten what it was like without his brother already or he didn't miss him as much as he said he did. (yes I'm aware I'm being bitchy about it but I'm really pissed at Sam right now)

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, bitch away. I've been there. Thank God for my far less volatile friends, lol. Though, I think a part of my less fuming response has to do with the fifteen minutes we spent talking about who's slutty and who's a whore, lol. I'm apparently extremely biased in that department which is why I shall never discuss the sex scenes on this show.

I'm mad at him, too, but I want them all happy and smooshy when this is over, so I'm not gonna let myself go too far down that path. I got past it in season 2, and I don't want to go back there, but I totally get what you're saying and don't negate it at all. It's a completely reasonable response to a completely unreasonable action.

*smooshes*

I miss Castiel.

[billysgirl5.livejournal.com]

Before I start, just keep in mind that I'm spoiler-free, but I will speculate a bit as to what I think will happen.

I have to agree...Sam and Dean both meant what they said. I think the siren played a part, not allowing the brothers to censor what they wanted to say...just pushed all their feelings out there, no holds barred. Was it logical and rational, probably not, but then again, feelings rarely are.

There are so many issues that Sam and Dean need to talk about, but don't, that there was no way it wouldn't eventually blow up in their faces. And I do believe that, once again, they'll pretend this never happened until it eats at them so much, they won't be able to stand to be around each other any more. This will push Sam to spend more time with Ruby just to get away. I'm not quite sure what/who Dean will turn to (although, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Anna).

Anyway, what I think will happen is that Sam will fall victim to his powers and will probably turn bad/evil. I'd say it's gonna happen around or will be the finale...the big knock-down, drag-out fight between Dean (good) and Sam (evil).

But, like I said, this is all speculation, because I have no clue as to what will happen.

As for Sam and Dean in this episode, it's almost like they've switched places. Sam is becoming the hardened hunter (Dean in S1), while Dean is becoming more emotional, almost emo (Sam in S1). For Sam, I think this stems from Sam having to watch Dean die over and over and over again in Mystery Spot and then having to deal with Dean being dead (and in hell) because of him, well, for him, anyway. He had to harden himself up, become tougher (be Dean) now that he was all alone. For Dean, it stems from his 40 years in Hell. He doesn't know how to handle it (who the hell does?!), and he's not used to sharing his feelings. Dean likes to bottle up, but I think he's realized, now, that he can't do that with this stuff; he needs to let it out.

Both brothers have issues that need to be dealt with, but instead of dealing with them, they're each lashing out at the person closest to him. It happens all the time. I'm not saying it's just Sam's fault, and I'm not saying that it's just Dean's fault. They're both at fault here in one way or another.

Did that all make sense? I kinda jumped around a bit...

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

*checks for sense* Um, yup, it made total sense. And I totally agree. As I was mentioning above, I think the biggest consequence of this episode is that... yes, they NEEDED to talk things out, but that's past tense now... they're not going to be able to talk things out anymore. Now they've made words their weapons, and since they both did it, there's no way either one of them believes the other didn't mean what he said. So, they're not going to give each other that power over them. They will go looking for someone else to confide in or they'll just keep it inside to fester. Which is exactly what you were saying, I think, except for the part where I don't think they have the option to talk anymore. That's gone.

Of course they lash out at each other. Most of their pain STARTS with the other, because they love each other and they care about each other's pain.

I think you're absolutely right about where this is going. I can see some possible variations, but that's the definite theme, or so it seems.

I just want them to come out of it purged of whatever they need to purge and ready to start over again, get bigger and better than before. A girl can hope, right?

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the fact that Sam was clouded by the siren, but exactly like in Asylum, I think deep down, it's what he thinks.

After School Special showed how much Sam didn't really like Dean in that period of his life and as much as Sam loves Dean and he does, he's still very angry at him.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

This is true. He's angry and it's real anger, but we know there's real love, too, and that conquers all, right? *is a huge sap*

[kynikey.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I get Sam feeling that way, too. Maybe in some twisted way he even thinks he's doing what he's doing to avenge the wrong that's been done to Dean. And some of it is maybe residual from the time he had to spend without Dean and where being a badass mofo was basically all that's kept him going.

As for Dean...I kinda agree with you there. Could go either way. I think he's probably not only blaming himself for what he did in hell, but for Sam changing, too, and I got the feeling this ep that he's never felt as alone in his life as he does right now. (which makes me just wanna pet and cuddle him, but I'm getting off track here). I think he's afraid of losing his lifeline.

All that incoherent and totally unrelated stuff said, I wasn't really happy with the ending, the way they both just tried to ignore what had been said, because I think even though they said it under the spell, I think they both knew there was a lot of truth in it and they just added that to the pile of unresolved issues (which is getting mountain-sized lately).

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

I'm totally with you on Dean being more alone than ever. I guess, in some ways, the character has to go there to learn how to be with himself and not so damned co-dependent, but as a big fan of DeanandSam, of course, it hurts to see them as Dean. and. Sam. I think they need it just as much as we don't want it.

And the part where they deny anything's wrong is just them. It fits. And of course, it's just going to push them farther down the path of exploring themselves outside the relationship. Unresolved issues drive the plot forward, yes? But so hard to watch. I think we spoil ourselves reading so much fanfic where they figure things out in the span of one case.

[apieceofcake.livejournal.com]

Agreed!

It hurts to watch them at odds..but at the same time bring it on..LOL!

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Haha, drama is the flame of passion, right? If they care, and we know they do, there's gonna be some friction. I'm afraid, but it's like getting up and going to work. We can languish here in dreadville forever, afraid of what's to come, or we can face it head on and trust it'll all work out in the end. *crosses fingers*

[rebekahfair.livejournal.com]

They both totally meant what they said. And they're in such denial in the end. "So we're good? When they obviously are not good at all. And it makes me sad. :(

I miss my boys being there for each other.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

I miss that, too. But like I was saying in another comment, the boys are so codependent they don't know themselves very well. Driving apart the two weaker, combatant forces can open the door to them coming back together both stronger and more confident and with new insight into the partnership.

Or maybe that's wishful thinking.

[oc-pixie.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree and we both know I'm a Dean girl...what the guys said to each other...that was their inner most darkest truths about the situations at hand. And OF COURSE they don't wanna talk about it....because it's too raw and real...I mean hell, we ALL know Sam meant what he said in Asylum...and he sure as hell meant it here...it seems that the boys only tell each other the worst of truths when under the influence of something else.

So yeah...it's definitely gonna head to one helluva smackdown, or as my best friend said a "bro-down," and if the guys can pick up the pieces...then they can start to heal....maybe.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, talking about it isn't even an option anymore. The words have been wielded as weapons, and their ears are firmly shut now. And there's no point talking when there aren't really any solutions to deep-seated problems. They'll just keep bringing up the same issues and banging their heads against the same walls. It's going to be resolved some other way, and it ain't gonna be purty. But I do think it will be resolved. *hopes*

[rejeneration.livejournal.com]

However, I can totally understand why Sam feels this way. Let's forget the whole Ruby and demon blood, demon destiny, blah, blah, demon ANYTHING influence. If your brother was A) going to Hell and you can't stop it no matter what you do, B) IN Hell and you can't bring him back, and C) back from Hell but in so much pain over what happened there that you don't have a clue what to do to fix him? Then you're going to have a whole lot of unresolved IRRATIONAL rage. Feelings do not have to be rational to be real. Nor is rage anything inhuman. So yeah, he said what he meant, what he's feeling, but he only feels that way because he's so completely impotent in the face of all things Dean, and he lashes out, therefore, at DEAN. I think it's the same ineffectiveness he feels in the face of Dean's trauma that drives him to push his powers into high gear. It also makes him incapable of seeing just how badly that's turning out.

I agree with every freaking word you said, here, babe. I agree SO HARD. It was hard to watch and it wasn't pretty, but I'm with you. Everything they said to each other was exactly how they felt.

To add on to your thought, here, it's no wonder either that Sam's still dealing with Ruby, that Sam's still so Hell bent on finding Lilith. Sam has no where to put the rage he wants to use to KILL THAT BITCH FOR HURTING DEAN AS MUCH AS SHE DID. And the fact that he feels like Dean's impeding him from doing that, well, he's virtually tying Sam's hands. Taking away the only thing he feels like he can do. Dean wants Sam to give it up, but the only thing he's got is making Lilith PAY. I'm so like that, so I can understand his feelings.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I think they're both tying each other's hands, and as much as I love DeanandSam, I think they need time to deal with Dean. To deal with Sam. To be themselves without all the impedance that comes with codependence. Neither one can reach his potential in their current state. And they're not looking at one another as; Dean, who's A, B, and C, and Sam who's X, Y, and Z. They're just seeing, family, brother, together, maybe even mine. As sad as it is to imagine, I think that the two of them fighting each other awhile, forced to find each other's strengths and weaknesses and wield them against each other will give them each a newfound appreciation and understanding for their what each brings to the relationship and not sacrifice those things for the sake of the relationship but build on them to make it better.

And how cheesy and cliche does that sound. *hangs head in shame*

[captcrashsc.livejournal.com]

I haven't had a chance to watch the ep yet, and I really don't meta well, but Kripke has always been all about touting the Star Wars aspect of these characters. Luke was severely tempted by the Dark Side of the Force but was eventually able to overcome it and how many times have we heard that Sam is the Luke Skywalker of SPN? And then we hear that Dean is the Han Solo character, so I'm totally banking on Castiel being his Chewbacca because dude...look at the hair. But that's beside the point. (Do I even have a point?)

As much as I love Sam, I don't think he was ready to hear what had happened to Dean. He pushed too hard too fast and it makes me think of the blow up they had in ELAC in season two over dealing with/ not dealing with John's death. Dean was trying to deal in his own way and Sam didn't think that was acceptable because it wasn't the way he'd (meaning Sam) deal with it. So we got all the angsting during that ep and well into season two.

This could just be me, but I think that Sam is so wrapped up in dealing with demony-goodness bullshit that he's finally gotten sick of it. If he pushes Dean to talk about his issues, then it takes his mind off the fact that he's doing something that he knows isn't the best option for him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think Sam is using Dean's problems as an avoidance strategy/ coping mechanism cause he's just so sick of dealing with his own shit. But then he gets pissed at his own inability to "fix" Dean and it calls into question whether or not he'll ever be able to "fix" himself. I don't think he wants to be evil, but he just can't find a way right now to get rid of Lillith and the threat of Lucifer that doesn't require him to be all evil Sam with no hope.

Do I make any sense at all?

*crawls back into bed*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I like your idea of Sam seeing Dean somewhat as a foil of himself. It has been pointed out that this season's Dean is more like Season 1 Sam and vice versa, so it's probably a good observation that they're starting to see their own flaws in the other and strike against them. It's just really sad that they need to be driven apart in order to find their own strengths, to gain confidence and make the relationship stronger.

Haha, Chewbacca. Someone needs to icon that. You are crazy.

[sams1ra.livejournal.com]

Hey, I didn't get notified for this! *pouts*
And I miss DA =(

I get what you're saying about Sam's helplessness turning to rage against Dean. Still made me cringe though.
And did I imagine the yellow in Sam's eyes when they did the close up? *ponders*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Sorry. I've been getting notifications late, too. So I dunno what's up with that.

Y'know, Tracer said she thought she saw yellow in his eyes, too. Karen and I both thought it was just the reflection from the glass on the window, but it's possible.

And it was cringeworthy no matter what caused it. *is sad*

[larienelengasse.livejournal.com]

I already posted a long-winded episode reaction in my own journal, that I won't insert here. Instead, I'll say this:

I get Sam. I totally do. Sam has idolized Dean in the past, and has admitted as much to Dean on multiple occasions. From Sam's perspective, he always tried to live up to Dean's example as a kid, and never felt like he could. He's always looked to Dean for reassurance and safety, which as of late, Dean's having a hard time giving since he's consumed with his own issues, and rightly so. So, the more Dean tries to control what's going on with Sam, because he's scared and trying to hang on to his little brother, the more Sam interprets it as Dean's lack of faith in him. Pair that with Dean's utter and absolute faith in John, and you've got the mix for some frustrated issues on Sam's part.

Yes, Sam said some really horrible and awful things last night. So has Dean. Calling him a freak, saying that if he didn't know him he'd want to hunt him. That's pretty shitty, and Dean said those things without any prodding or prompting on behalf of anything supernatural. That was all him. Of course, he said those things because he's scared to death of what's happening to Sam, and because he LOVES HIM.

Bottom line is, they've both got a lot of issues. Dean's already proven how far he'll go in sacrificing himself for Sam. Sam's about to prove that to Dean now. They need each other like they need air to breathe - without each other, it's going to end badly for both of them. Sam will lose control and give in to all that darkness inside him, and Dean will self-destruct in the face of the loss of his brother.

I firmly believe that the irony here is that they both define themselves by how the other sees them and they are totally unaware of how that really is. Dean's self-worth is defined by Sam trusting and needing him. Sam's self-worth is defined by Dean's trusting and approving of him. However, they are both tearing each other apart because neither one of them understands the other and therefore they are unconsciously hurting each other.

Wow. That was more long winded than I intended it to be. Sorry.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on most things, except for the part where Sam has to prove himself by sacrificing himself for Dean, because I believe sacrifice was the exact thing the Trickster said they were doing wrong in Mystery Spot. They keep sacrificing themselves for each other. I did a lot of meta about sacrifice back when that episode aired and during the hiatus but that's all locked now, because I lock everything every few months or so. But sacrifice is about giving something more than you expect to get back in return. They've both given a lot back and forth but until now they've gotten back more... they've gotten THEM.

I have a scary sick sort of feeling where I think one of them will actually have to kill the other and not expect to get him back. That would be the true sacrifice, but then of course, I couldn't live with that, so I'd hope there'd be some magical fix for that that no one sees coming. I don't care if it's cheesy. Cuz I'm not willing to sacrifice DeanandSam even if that's what needs to happen.

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

You mean he's going to snap and strike back?

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know about that. I actually think if Dean does go evil, it will be because of a choice either he or Sam makes. To take away the pain, maybe in an effort to think more clearly? Or something else. But at this point, it seems the remorse over what he did in Hell is what kept him from losing his humanity while he was there. Should someone take away the remorse.... who knows what could happen. But that's more of a plot idea for a fic than anything I think they'd actually do on the show.

[irismay42.livejournal.com]

The boys need couples therapy. The subtext all the way through the ep was comparing their relationship to cheating spouses, and couples who grow apart... This season can only end with what the whole show has always been leading up to - Sam going evil. And Dean saving him from himself somehow.

Although up until SAV I would have maintained that Dean could never bring himself to hurt Sam, even if he's gone evil, and that's what will ultimately save him. But. That was Dean with an axe. And he wasn't playing around when he was aiming it at Sammy. While I'm not sure either Dean or Sam were able to control the violence they were throwing at each other, I think you're right that the underlying emotions were very real. So that might put my whole "Dean loves Sam too much not to save him" theory in jeopardy!

[layne67.livejournal.com]

Then you're going to have a whole lot of unresolved IRRATIONAL rage. Feelings do not have to be rational to be real. Nor is rage anything inhuman. So yeah, he said what he meant, what he's feeling, but he only feels that way because he's so completely impotent in the face of all things Dean, and he lashes out, therefore, at DEAN.

WORD.

And the loss of inhibition, saying things that have been there but suppressed. Uncontrolled anger is a scary thing indeed. And you know when we're angry with our loved ones, we tend to say and do more than when we're angry at say, our work colleagues or neighbours. I say more hurtful things to my family when I'm angry as compared to when I'm angry at my friends. And the more I love them, the more hurtful I get. Gosh, the things I've said to my mum and my hubby, the two people I love most in the world, things I would never say to other people. Am I making any sense here?

It hurts nevertheless, and just imagine what Dean himself felt. Gosh, it was like a serrated blade being thrusted, and twisted, inside your heart, when he said what he said.

[doctor-dorothy.livejournal.com]

One hundred percent agree with you about Sam. Do I like what he said? No. I kept thinking about how much hearing that must have crushed Dean and, yeah, it kinda makes me want to cry. And I also think that Sam is actually thinking and feeling the things that he said. However, I also think that those things, though utterly unjustifiable, are certainly understandable. We know who Sam is, what he wants, and how he has lost many of the things he dearly wishes he could have. And we know that, on some level at least, he directs that blame toward his life, the hunting, and Dean as a proxy for both those things. And we also know that as much as he grieved Dean, he must also have been really angry at him for leaving Sam the way he did.

As far as I'm concerned, that ep featured some really fabulous writing that was very much in keeping with the boys we know. Which is why it hurts so much.

late to the party, er, episode discussion...

[datenshiblue.livejournal.com]

I really hated the end of that episode, I hated what Sam said. I hate the thought that he would be thinking something like that but I do find the howl of fangirls out there in the wild places ironic because he said what I had heard some fans saying.

Even before the final confrontation between the boys, though, I was shocked by things Dean did and said. Calling Sam down on doing it with monsters? Bringing up Ruby was one thing but Madison? When he practically shoved Sam into her arms, and the way that ended?

The harsh was going both ways, shoving it in our faces how disconnected they are.

One thing, though. Sam didn't make Dean tell him about hell, he didn't force any confession from him. He listened. It doesn't make the things he said any less a betrayal, but it also doesn't justify the fan reaction of Sam made Dean tell him about hell and now he rags on him for whining.

Dean made his confessions when he was ready to. And while Sam needed to know those things, I don't think it helped Dean to spill his guts. I think the confessions just made him feel more wrong, more shamed.

Hugs aren't going to heal 30 years of torture and 10 years of torturing. I'm not sure what could, which is why I'm so worried. But I think in the end that the only thing that will help Dean is the only thing that will help Sam reconcile with his demon blood problem. His taint.

They're both tainted, now. Sam by Azazel's blood and his acceptance of his powers, Dean by his breaking and acceptance of torturing others in hell. And by we can't even guess what ever may have happened there.

I think the only thing that can mend either of them, if it can be done, is finding a way to fight back against the forces that brought them to where they are. To fight and win.

And maybe, yes, to sacrifice themselves.

Oh boys. ;_:

Re: late to the party, er, episode discussion...

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Haha, you've hit on something I've said in a couple comments on other threads. Some girls got all defensive about what Sam said and felt they had to defend him for it, but just the week before they were saying the same things in their own journals. And they get angry about Dean bringing up Sam's sleeping arrangements when every other post in their own journals is how much they have ruined Sam's character by having him sleep with a demon.

I do think Sam backed off about getting Dean to tell him what happened in Hell, but he did ask a few times, and he did tell Dean that if he talked about Hell then Sam would tell the rest. So, while Sam didn't make Dean talk, he did say he wanted to know more than once.

Definitely no to the hugs. I don't know where people think that fixes everything. I've had lots of hugs. They never fixed anything. I think they just made the hugger feel better. LOL.

I totally agree. Somewhere they're going to have to stop listening to anyone but each other and then listen with their hearts and not their minds. That's going to save something, I just hope they're included in the deal. Cuz I don't want them deaded.