A single point post...

[ht_murray]

Because I know most of you won't read my episode reaction, and I wouldn't want you to if that harshes your squee. Basically, my feelings about 5.22 were, it could probably have ended any other way, and I would've liked it better, because they picked the one ending that I've been dreading since Season 1. And I wasn't sure why it was I hated the idea so much until I just read some discussion in x5vale's post. And then it came clear. So, here's my one point, and I don't think it's wanky at all.



The statement was made in that discussion that Dean's heroism comes from his strength to keep Sam's promise. To at least try, because it takes more strength to live than to die. I agree. I agree one hundred percent. That's always been Dean's strength.

But that's the problem. That's always been his strength, and he's been knuckling under the weight of this life for pretty much all of it. When does he get the peace? Sure, now he doesn't have to protect Sam, but he's burdened by having to keep the promise just the same.

I'm just so epically tired for him. I have been since Season 2, and this doesn't feel fair for him. Even if he could manage some semblance of normal, it'd never be his choice. It was Sam's. I don't even have a problem with them being apart at the end. I just wanted him to be able to choose his own path, and he got nothing.

I'm just so heartbroken for him and more than a little pissed at Sam for wishing that on him. I don't know if I'll be watching the next season, not because I have some huge statement to make or because I feel entitled to something better, but because I'm so tired of all the angst and the constant adding to the load. The song says, there'll be peace when you are done. Why use that time and again if no one gets any peace? Dean might be heroically strong, but I am not.

I really am glad some people enjoyed it. I wanted to. Usually when I expect to be disappointed I am pleasantly surprised. That didn't happen, and I'm honestly a little jealous at those of you who got something positive out of it, but no matter how much I read your responses and arguments, I don't buy them. This is one instance where I feel like I must be watching another show. If that's the case, and I am annoying to you, then I won't feel bad about you leaving. I never wanted to harsh anyone's squee. I just cannot be happy with this.

Comments

[apieceofcake.livejournal.com]

*huggles*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Jo. I'm glad you got something you're happy with.

[maboheme.livejournal.com]

Oh, hon. I understand where you're coming from. I'm so incredibly sad for Dean. Even if I did enjoy the ep overall, I really can see why folks didn't. I think I had such incredibly low expectations for the finale (I really thought I'd hate it, NGL) that when I didn't end up hating it outright, I was so giddy. *shaking head*

I just want to hug you because I do love your thoughts on the show, and I'm hoping S6 will steal your heart again. *hugs*

[cradle-song.livejournal.com]

This.

I was so disappointed in that ep, and yeah, I dunno if I can watch anymore after this season either. I was really hoping this season would wrap things up, but then they went and extended it. But if they keep going on like this with all the angst and suffering and drama and gloom, I don't think I'll be able to keep watching. =\

I'm still pissed at how much Dean was marginalized toward the end of things, too.

[unplugged32.livejournal.com]

On second watching I wept for Dean whe he was getting his ass kicked and kept telling Sam that he was there for him, as well as when he was kneeling over the spot that his brother had disappeared. Initially I was really angry at the ending but after I calmed down I realized that Dean really has no choice. He can't try and get Sam out because they might end the world again, and this time they'd be doing it while fully knowing the consequences. As for if he'd like to be with Lisa or not, supposedly Dean said when he pictures himself happy it's with her. We got this as far back as DALDOM so it's not something they just sprung on us. Anyway, even though this all adds up and fills in all the little plot holes I won't say I'm happy about it. But if they did another storyline about Dean trying to get Sam out I think I'd burn my dvd's in protest. I have read some pretty good spoilers for next season which I will keep to myself but since we will have a season 6 it's not a spoiler to assume that the boys will be back together, hopefully better than ever. Lastly, you're not harshing my squeee because like I said I'm also feeling kind of super sad about the episode but I'm just really looking forward to season 6 and hoping they go back to hunting Wendigos:)

{{smishes}}

[apieceofcake.livejournal.com]

I don't feel very happy ..LOL! I found that very emotional so I'm still feeling that, drained & a little miserable. But the last is my own fault for reading peeps eps responses when i should know better.

I'm not getting at you, so no worries..it just seems half my flist aren't happy. Usually one or two but so many is a downer..LOL! Looks like I'm gonna have less SPN peeps on my flist and that won't be from me deriending them.f

I didn't hate this episode, didn't love it, but I'm okay with it.

gaelicspirit said this in hers today

>> Cause when it comes down to it, I just want to be entertained. I’m not looking for a new gospel. I’m not looking for a cause. I’m not looking for a manifestation of my own personal belief system. I just want a hero who is real and who is broken and who never stops fighting and who loves and who hates and who lives and bleeds and despairs and rejoices and gets dirty and cleans up and looks good doing every single one of those things. I want the escape and I want to fall in love each week and I want to be inspired.

And I have been. I have been 100 times over.>>

And overall over the five seasons that is what I've got so that is my happy :-)

xx.

[kjfri.livejournal.com]

I'm just so epically tired for him. - boy howdy do I hear you! I guess that's part of my mixed feelings...not knowing how they're going to apply this whole new apple-pie kind of life despite the epic tragedies that have occured in Dean's life. But in another flistie's post, she mentioned that season 6 might play on the tough choice between settling down and hunting again - which could be interesting. I just hope they don't skip all the obvious PTSD that Dean will have to endure in trying to become a regular citizen, but I don't hold much hope for it - Show hasn't always been reliable in their delivery.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, you had me until you quoted GS. I cant' agree with anything she says on principle, which is a personal thing.

But I can understand wanting the show to just be about entertainment.

Thing is, I've written stuff that cheesy and over the top, and my beta shamed me into changing it. But if I'm honest, the cheesy entertainment factor is the only thing that keeps me from tearing my hair out right now, because I can at least kid myself into believing none of that was meant to be taken seriously, and therefore, just isn't real.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I haven't been this depressed since season 2, and I think it's just worse because I feel like I'm alone. It's funny, because I really had low expectations. I expected to hate it, and when I do that, I'm usually pleasantly surprised. Except this time the exact thing I was dreading and knew I would hate actually happened. I don't know if I can come back after being let down that hard.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

I know. I was ready for season 5 to be the end because I'm more than aware that the emotional roller coaster this show puts me on is not a healthy part of my life. I would've loved show for tying it up in a way I could live with so I could go into season 6 just looking for entertainment and not having to deal with the constant angst.


I don't know that I can make a commitment to taking on more just because it got picked up for another season.

And yeah... marginalized. :S

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

You're braver than I if you watched it more than once. :P

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I could probably get into a storyline where Dean realizes he really can have the apple pie life but also feels like hunting is part of who he is. But right now, he's got no choices, no peace, nothing. I hate that, and I don't trust them to fix it in any believable fashion.

[mini-moue.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope you'll be able to watch S6 because surely they will use what's bound to be the final season to give the boys closure and some mutual happiness. This isn't the end, and I still have some faith that they'll get there together. *hugs your legs like an annoying kid* :-D

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Haha, I'm tired just thinking about season 6. I'm supposed to run intervals today, and instead I'm nauseous and sleep-deprived. If that doesn't tell me that show is not good for me, I don't know what does.

But who knows? *shrugs*

[kjfri.livejournal.com]

I don't trust them to fix it in any believable fashion - me either. oh well, nothing to do but for you to go keep runing and me to keep reading fic.

[sexytexanjra.livejournal.com]

*puts finger to pursed lips in thought*

Hmmm...do you think some of your sadness and tiredness about Dean's plight and put upon position comes from your identification of a certain special person in your life in Dean's role/personality and therefore you identify so much more strongly with his pain/plight?

Sorry, I don't mean to be personal and I hope I'm not being offensive I'm really not meaning to and apologies if that offends in anyway, I was just curious. (remembers old saying, curiosity killed the cat!)

Anyway, it is definitely not harshing my squee as I really wasn't squeeing, just ok with it so feel free to have your opinion without persecution. You are just as entitled to feel angry and cheated as other are happy and excited. I personally like it when others opinions aren't quite the same as mine as it gives me something to muse over and ponder.

Again, I hope my delving into personal points doesn't offend it was definitely not my intent, just curiosity!

*Hugs*

Oh and just thought;

The song says, there'll be peace when you are done. Why use that time and again if no one gets any peace?

I think the point here is that they aren't done yet and probably won't be until they are dead for good. Personally that how I see the series ending true to what they have built up over the years (going out in a blaze of glory. But S6 killed that option). The fangirl in me scream NO please don't kill my boys, but that is the only way that I ever see Dean having true peace; when he is dead for good and not in hell. But that's just me!

Ok shutting up now!

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that's a keen insight, but I don't think it has anything to do with that, especially since he and I were pretty much bickering through the whole episode, him being a giant Sam!girl and all. LOL.

I'm actually a little perturbed about how anyone can love Dean and not feel like he's been given a fate worse than hell. But that's me. Hard to think with a giant lump in my throat.

And why should they have to die to have peace? How is that okay? That's my biggest qualm with death!fic, because it implies there is no way to fix them in life, and usually it just means the author has no real understanding of human spirit or how it can triumph. And I realize that, in light of this post, it might sound ironic that I feel human spirit trumps it all. Actually, my feelings in this post are probably strong because I am not and I do not want to have to suffer through this anymore, but I don't know how to not care, either.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

You know I felt like this after Mistery Spot (maybe the only one in the whole fandom). To me they stole a aprt of Dean's life there.

I replied to you in my lj and believe me, I do really know where are you coming from.

I just think it was not a Sam's choice but a Dean's one. I don't want to change your mind, but imho it was Dean who decided to let Sam go. It was Dean who stepped back from his parental role and decided to lose Sam.

Dean was aware of the consequences and went with them because, at the very end, it was about "saving people". They did, they pay for this.

He will evnetually find peace and maybe, just maybe he will realize that freedom gives him peace.

Now I know you won't buy this, but I think the discussion is worthy :))))

*hugs you*

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in Ange but yes to this:

I think the point here is that they aren't done yet and probably won't be until they are dead for good. Personally that how I see the series ending true to what they have built up over the years (going out in a blaze of glory. But S6 killed that option). The fangirl in me scream NO please don't kill my boys, but that is the only way that I ever see Dean having true peace; when he is dead for good and not in hell. But that's just me!



Maybe well Dean can at least try....

[sexytexanjra.livejournal.com]

especially since he and I were pretty much bickering through the whole episode

LOL, that is totally why my hubby and I don't watch the epis together! Hee, hee!

I'm actually a little perturbed about how anyone can love Dean and not feel like he's been given a fate worse than hell.

I agree that he has been given a fate worse than hell, but sadly I must confess that I love watching him when he is trying very hard to pretend that it's all ok but really is anything but. That I totally blame Jensen on because he portrays that so beautifully that even though I feel guilty for enjoying his pain, I can't help myself at the same time. Don't get me wrong. I will need them to give him something and soon, but I can deal with more angst for now given where they took the story.

And why should they have to die to have peace? How is that okay?

I don't think it's ok at all, I just think that it's the way the story is being played out and the realist in me keeps harping that it's the most likely given what they do. I suppose it depends on how you want your escapism, really. I just find that in reality, most times it ain't a truly happy ending, it's often very bittersweet, but I am a big cynic so that could have a bearing!

but I don't know how to not care, either.

But you see that is why I love you and love discussing this stuff with you because you are so passionate about it. Passion is not a bad thing, it is what drives us to do the extraordinary. NEVER see it as a bad thing!

*Hugs you and offers you warm cosy thoughts of Dean and Sam together in the Impala driving off into the sunset* :D

[jellicle.livejournal.com]

First of all, HUGS!!!

I'm still diggesting the episode. I loved some parts, mostly because of the strong emotional acting. Jensen Ackles keeps on breaking me into tiny pieces.

The song says, there'll be peace when you are done.
I guess - and I mean literally - Kripke's idea of peace for the Winchesters is death and heaven. Castiel asked Dean if he'd choose freedom or peace. He chose freedom, more of the same, to keep on going. I guess he meant 'you're going to keep on hurting one way or the other until the day you die.

Please don't give up on the show. I need my sane friends to help me deal with all the pain.

I bleed for Dean, it is exhausting but I can't abandon him.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL. I replied in your journal. Like I said there, I don't think it was his choice, just forfeit. What else could he really have done? I won't say he doesn't want the apple pie life and that that doesn't suggest he's grown as a character, but choosing between that OR Sam is not a real choice, since he can't ever be happy without both.

And I thought that speech about freedom or peace made no sense. I don't believe you can have one without the other, so right now he's free of one role but burdened by another and has no peace either way.

I don't even think he chose to let Sam go in as far as he didn't follow him into the pit, because at that point, I don't think he could've gotten up off the ground to jump in.

I can't say how much I hate what they did here.

[sexytexanjra.livejournal.com]

Maybe well Dean can at least try....

He bloody well better, I don't want him to die, ever!! If they ever did kill them off in a blaze of glory I would be gutted! I was gutted when he went to hell, even though I knew he'd be coming back somehow. That would just kill me as much as I feel it's probably where they have lead the series for so long with the portrayal of their lives and motivators! DNW!!! :D

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Jensen was beautiful. But he's always been, and that's probably because Dean keeps getting the same crappy storylines to play over and over again. I'll never buy that death is peace. That just... no, and we saw Heaven was a total farce. If they don't get peace on earth, they're not going to get it, and all this episode said to me was they want the boy to suffer forever, because that's his superpower.

I cannot deal with this.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

You know I need Dean alive, tired, desperate but ALIVE!

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, I dont' even care if Dean and Sam don't drive off into the sunset together. I'd actually be quite happy with them driving separate vehicles and having separate apple pie lives but knowing that they'll always have each other's backs.

I just don't think I have the strength to wait for that to happen. There's never any resolution, and even a badfic writer like myself knows you need to ease up every once in awhile or risk drowning out your audience.

Consider me drowned.

*glub, glub*

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

I meant he decided to let Sam go no when they where by the pit but when he told him he was an adult man and he had to make his choice.

Aneg and I were just discussing about the end of his parental role and for me that was Dean biggest reward.

Now it's up to him, something will be always missed in his life but he can learn to live for himself and in memory of Sam.

Of course this is not going to happen since we have S6.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Please don't give up on the show. I need my sane friends to help me deal with all the pain.

I bleed for Dean, it is exhausting but I can't abandon him.

WORD!

[jellicle.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with death=peace either. I just think that maybe that's what they wanted to sell. I don't know.

I'm addicted to Dean. Honestly, I would've abandoned the show a long time ago if it wasn't for Jensen and Dean. I just don't want to leave him all by himself in that cold world he's stuck in. Crazy, right?

But even if you choose to say goodbye to the show, please don't leave me! Please?
Hugs.

[jellicle.livejournal.com]

That's insane but I love Dean as if he was real, and I can't abandon him because I can't abandon a friend, I can't abandon him. It's exhausting, it hurts, it breaks my heart again and again and again, I get angry in many occasions because life is not fair to him, but I can't leave him. My beloved Dean.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

*points to my icon*

I know exactly what you mean.

[country_bee.livejournal.com]

I can't possibly add to that, what you said was perfect! And completely how I feel! If Dean had made the choice on his own, then fine, but he did it out of some sort of twisted obligation. It was Sam's dying wish...of course he was going to keep it. (which I don't know why! Sam didn't keep his but whatever) I just want Dean to get his happy ending...and this wasn't it. This was torture! Going back to hell would have been easier on him!

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I see what you're saying, but I don't believe it. I get that not all rewards feel like rewards at the time. I'm totally singing "Unanswered Prayers" by Garth Brooks now, but how can just cutting out a part of himself be a reward? It's like saying, okay, Dean, we're gonna make you happy, but first you have to stop being you.

Plus if he's living in memory of Sam, he's not living for himself. That's the whole deal breaker right there. It doesn't matter how much he might have wanted that life for himself, if it comes with these kind of conditions he'd never choose it and it will never be his life.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I get that they had to keep something for season 6, but why bother saying season six was going to be a reset if they're going to bring all the baggage from the first five seasons along with it? The worst part is, I think if they'd ended right before Sam fell into the pit, I wouldn't feel as cheated as I do now, but now I feel like not only did Dean get the biggest load to bear that he's ever been asked to bear, but we're all emotionally bound to carry it, too, or walk away, just because they decided they were going to carry on beyond 5 years.

I don't appreciate being played like that, and I don't appreciate them always torturing an awesome character to carry out their emotional blackmail. Maybe if they focused more on writing better plot they wouldn't have to play the emotional trump card every time they can't tie up a loose end.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

I hear you about Jensen and Dean keeping you here. I'm the same, and I'll probably be here next season (unless it's a midseason thing, which is just too long for anyone to hold me hostage to my heartstrings). There hasn't been anything in the actual fandom that's made me feel good in a long time. Just Jensen. Just Dean. And I love my fandom friends because they're friends, not because they're fandom.

But it's not healthy to feel this terrible after watching television. I mean, I've had bouts of depression before, but this show seems to trigger it like nothing else I've ever known. I don't understand why they couldn't give us something to let us sleep better at night.

I'm... yeah, never going to get over this, I think. I've already spent way too much time with my heart in my throat. It's stupid of me to let them do that to me.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean living in memory of sam erasing who Dean is but simply remembering the good times with his brother and all the things they did together.

Keeping his word and trying to live a life he has always wanted but has always been afraid to have.

I still think he could have chosen to follow or stop Sam, so for me it was his choice.

Anyway I guess we agree to disagree, I just hope you will give this show a chance.

[sams1ra.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with you on that.
I've said it a million times - Dean's character stopped growing in season 2, and yeah, that annoyed me a lot.
But hey, that's what fic's for, right?
I mean, look at my new icon. It totally speaks the truth... ^__~

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Speaking of, can I have an update on Triage before I go to bed? LOL.

[sams1ra.livejournal.com]

lol
I post once a week, cuz I've really been straggling with writing this. I just hope I finish this damn fic already. lol.

The next chapter will be up Monday, I think.
*stares at icon*
*stares at unfinished chapter*
*headdesk x billionty*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, I guess I was under the impression that it was already finished and you were just spacing out the chapters. Sucks to be wrong. :P

[sams1ra.livejournal.com]

That's why I'm only posting to my journal and nowhere else.
It's also why I didn't have this betaed before posting.
I just figured, if I'm not gonna start posting, I'm never gonna finish writing.
But hey, you're not one to complain about these things. I'm still bitter about Double Blind you know. And a couple more fics you never finished. *shakes a fist* lol

Have a good night!

*hugs*

[gatorgrrrl.livejournal.com]

I'm just so epically tired for him. I have been since Season 2, and this doesn't feel fair for him. Even if he could manage some semblance of normal, it'd never be his choice. It was Sam's.

I completely agree with these 4 statements.

As for reading other people's discussions (besides yours), I try to avoid it as much as possible. Not only does it tend to 'harsh my squee', but I get too easily drawn into (useless) arguments I do not need to be in. I'm just made to argue, I guess. So I tend to stick with the stuff I agree with to keep my BP low. ;oP

Though I have to say, I didn't dislike the ep as much as you did, even if watching Dean every week pretty much exhausts me and this last ep 100x more than usual. (Thus, my agreement with the above.)

I'm watching it again later. Maybe then I'll be able to make up my mind about a couple things in the ep I'm still on the fence about.

As for Dean, he doesn't know who he is besides Sam's brother, you know? He's never had the opportunity to figure out who 'Dean' is. Sounds cheesy, maybe, but I wouldn't mind a little self-actualization from him next season (for lack of a better term).

Good post. :o)

[vanae.livejournal.com]

I just don't feel like we're going anywhere. To me, it's like we've ended up the same place over and over again since the season 2 finale. I've just watched, so I don't really have a proper opinion yet, but I went from bored to annoyed to hmpf to "my god, doesn't anyone ever stay dead on this show?!" to "okay, cheesy" to "uhm...". I don't know, I felt utterly detached through most it.

[sexytexanjra.livejournal.com]

Far enough Hon. I understand being angst out and in need a of a happy ending, well at a happier ending.

I guess that the angst limit is different for everyone. Maybe after you have had some time over hiatus you'll be back to being ok with the angst.

Anyway so long as you don't disappear cause you far from a badfic writer and I would hate to see you disappear and we lose you fics too.

*hugs you and tries to hold you up from the rising tide of angst*

[fufaraw]

I feel the same way about Dean.

But I'm also resentful on Sam's behalf--he was tapped by "destiny"--rapidly becoming my least favorite word next to "apocalypse"--to be Satan's meatsuit, and nothing any mortal could do could change that. So he agrees, with the plan to recage the beast. Does he get peace? No, he gets eternity in torment caged inside Lucifer inside the cage in hell.

No good deed goes unpunished? Yeah, Krip, we get it now. But if that was your point to start with, why drag it out this long, and make it feel like peace for both of them was a possibility? Feh.