Random speculationy thingie that might contain SPOILERS

[ht_murray]

I don't usually make these kinds of posts anymore, because A) I usually have like t-minus ten seconds to post and no time to discuss, which kinda takes the fun out of it for everyone and B) I'm never right, and I've come to accept that, but I hate having these posts hanging around glaring at me, LOL.

But anyway, I'm not gonna make any huge sprawling speculations about the entire direction of the show, who might do what and when. I do have my own favorite scenario all tucked away nicely in my brain, so when show goes some other direction, I'll have lovely fic fodder, but just this one thing I've been thinking about for the last day or so has kinda got me confuddled.



So, I've been thinking about Anna. I know, of all the interesting points to ponder, why her?

She said the first thing she heard, (back when she was just crazy and not an angel) was something like, "Dean Winchester is saved."

ETA: Erm, most likely the reason was just that angels were on earth for the first time in 2000 years, so they were closer. Thanks y'all for pointing out my blonde moment. LOL. But that doesn't really change the rest of this ponderance...

I mean, everything started then, didn't it? Ruby had apparently never seen an angel before then. And Lilith hadn't started breaking seals before then, that we know of. (When was the first time they mentioned a number? Anyone, anyone?)

And I know people have beenthrowing around the idea that one of the boys might be the final seal, and that might still be true, but what if yanking Dean out of Hell was actually the first seal? (It kinda fits with a spoiler I'm probably not remembering correctly, but wasn't there a spoiler that said they'll find out that Lilith's ability to break the seals was a consequence of Dean being pulled out of Hell? Or did I imagine that?)

Everything seems to start there, doesn't it? Like a barrier was lifted. (Or a veil torn away) Not Azazel's plan and all that, but the big push for the end. I wonder if maybe Lilith couldn't break the first seal. Maybe Heaven had to make the first move. If that's the case, then I wonder, why would they?

No, I'm not deluded enough to say, "cuz Dean is awesome like that," lol.

I mean, there are so many weird and exciting ways THAT could send the storyline. I mean, if you put any stake in Biblical stuffs, God promised never to send another flood but did say he'd rain down fire from Heaven. So, it does kinda seem fitting that Heaven starts the Apocalypse ball a-rollin'.

But do I think Azazel's ultimate plan was to stop it? No. I might be remembering wrong, but I thought one of the reasons he was tossed out of Heaven was because he thought he was better than mankind and had no respect for us. I dont see him planning to save us... unless he wants a slave race. LOL. Planet of the Azazel's anyone?

And Lucifer's plan can't be much better, because the demon Casey said she'd follow Sam instead of Lucifer, and that episode seemed to be about sins of the flesh, which makes me think a lot of demons kinda like having people around to toy with. LOL.

And anyway, that's random and stupid, and I had a lot more stuff to throw in here, but my boss asked me to come in early, so I haven't got time to write them. Sigh.

I realize there's nothing really coherent here to reply to, but anyway, feel free to speculate if you want. It will at least keep me entertained in the wee hours of the morning when I get a chance to log on again.

*smooshes to all*

Comments

[rebekahfair.livejournal.com]

I think this is great. There are other fandoms I've been in where I've just over thought everything (and have often been wrong), but for some reason, I just sit back and let SPN happen. I wonder about evil!Sam and whether or not both boys will make it to the end (I think they will and hope they will). So it's nice to read your ideas, and I think they are great questions. Why is this all happening now?

I stay firm to the idea that one of the main reasons Dean was rescued from hell is because Sam needs Dean to keep him from the demonic temptation or turning completely dark side. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Sam will temporarily let the powers consume him, but I believe that Dean is going to be the one to pull him back. I think this makes the Crossroad Demon's comment more relevant: "We have Dean right where we want him." If Lilith holds the contracts and she wants Sam gone, what better way to get rid of him than to send him to hell? Sam was willing to go there for Dean, but they still said no. Dean being in hell was a big deal for them.

Wow... that was long O_o

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, I know what you mean. I WISH I could just watch the show and not speculate about where it's going. It would make my life so much easier. But damn Kripke and all his unanswered questions.

And yeah, Dean being in Hell was a big deal for them, but apparently also for Heaven if they made such a sweeping gesture to get him out. Personally, I think there's the basic conflict of Heaven and Hell represented by Angels and Lucifer, but I think Azazel is the wrench in the works, and his plan might force the whole scenario into a lose-lose situation for humanity. In which case, it will be up to Sam and Dean to go with their guts and do their own thing.

Just don't ask me to fill in the blanks, cuz I haz no clue.

[chocca2.livejournal.com]

but what if yanking Dean out of Hell was actually the first seal?

My speculation with Dean follows this path. And *scratches head* I remember a spoiler where they said that 'something/ a reveal' to come would leave Dean feeling really guilty. I may have heard that completely wrong.

I think and hope they conclude what we have yet to learn with Sam and Lilith. I stumbled across some interesting reading about 'Samael and Lilith':

"The marriage of Samael and Lilith is known as the "Angel Satan" or the "Other God," but it was not allowed to last... " and it goes on

talks of them being the 'evil' version adam and eve? Anyway, the show is yet to reveal where and how far they'll go with this.

Is there a conclusion to any of this? nope, I'm just thinking out loud! lol

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Mmm-hmm. *nods* I've heard about the Sam/Samael connection, too, but I keep getting stuck on the fact that Lilith really seems to hate Sam and is pretty darned set on killing him and putting the pain to him.

But I thin the evil version of Adam and Eve thing could still come into play with Lilith/Lucifer. *ponders*

[captcrashsc.livejournal.com]

I's all up in ur entry...stealin' ur threadz...

*snerk*

Now I'm just thinking of the line from 27 Dresses about hot hate sex. She can hate the bejesus out of him, but still want/ need him for something, ya know? Maybe Ruby isn't Ruby and she's already rocking the hot hate sex mojo. That could be an interesting angle. Here Sam thinks it's Ruby teaching him all he needs to beat Lilith and yet, it's been Lilith all along and she's teaching him some, but not what he actually needs to know. Course, I could be talking out my ass.

*loves up all on your leg like a cat*

Oh! I'm going to try to post more Overboard!Jared this weekend. I've got a bunch of snippets I scribbled down during lunch this week that I need to put in order. I'm making progress, I swear. LOL

♥ you muchly

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, I ♥ you more. *razzberry*

Now, that's a good point, talking out ur ear or not, LOL. In fact, I think I need a talking out ur ass thread, LOL. People can just post whatever they think might happen in their wildest dreams.

But you could be right. *ponders* Of course, I ain't seen that movie. But don't say hate sex. I'm really trying to keep our bigbang Gen, and that's just begging me to write... notGen, lol.

ooh,more Overboard! I'm excited. I have a scene all in my head too but I haven't written it yet. *so tired* Which reminds me, that song All For You by Sister Hazel... could so be the theme song of that fic. Then again, so could ever song off of Beautiful Letdown, LOL.

*is a spaz*

[chocca2.livejournal.com]

*pokes you* Hee! GEN GEN GEN! Bigbang = Gen lol

*smish*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Gen? What's that? Someone's name? LOL. *pokes you back*

[chase-acow.livejournal.com]

The first crazy theory I had at the beginning on S4 was that Sam and Dean would end up working (not happily but for the greater good of mankind) with demons against whatever nefarious plot the angels had going on. Sure it might be a rocky road, but the boys would end up on the same side, depending on each other to keep from both falling into the abyss while saving the world. I loved that idea, but I don't think that's what we're going to get at all.

I seriously can't wait to figure out how Azazel fits into everything. As much as I'm excited to see how this season ends, I think I'm pretty much dreading it too. : )

I try not to think about Anna as much as possible. *winces*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Well, first of all, that's not a crazy idea. Though, I don't think the show wants to go complete opposite to mythology and make Heaven out to be the real bad guys. I think I read a spoiler somewhere that said, while the waters would get pretty murky so it would be hard to tell where the good and evil lines were drawn, that everything would eventually end up where it should. I might've misinterpreted that wrong, but I think it means most of the mythology will still hold some water. It wouldn't be in anyone's best interest to completely destroy a belief system. Now, I'm having Dark Knight flashes.

But I do think, something so awful might happen or be imminent that the "good" guys might think the only way to save us is to kill us all, y'know, euthanasia, lol. And that Sam and Dean will have to fight against both sides of the equation to save us.

Of course, first they have to stop fighting each OTHER. *shakes head* Crazy boys.

[astri13.livejournal.com]

And I know people have beenthrowing around the idea that one of the boys might be the final seal, and that might still be true, but what if yanking Dean out of Hell was actually the first seal? (It kinda fits with a spoiler I'm probably not remembering correctly, but wasn't there a spoiler that said they'll find out that Lilith's ability to break the seals was a consequence of Dean being pulled out of Hell? Or did I imagine that?)

Nope, there was a spoiler like that but I can't account for the accurateness of the source. Of course, it is very curious.

I had imagined it going like this: Lilith starts breaking seals which is why Angels set foot on Earth for the first time in 2000 years, for reasons unknown they save Dean so he can help with stopping Lilith, I had written Anna hearing them just now down to the fact that she could hear the Angels on Earth but couldn't hear their chatter up in Heaven.

However, if they saved Dean and - likely - fully knowing it would break a seal - they know what the other seals are, just not which Lilith targets in advance - why did they do it? I'm guessing other people have gone to hell who didn't deserve it. And I also can't believe it was about Sam. If they frowned upon his actions, they would have vanquished him as easily as they were about a town to protect a seal. The Heavenly Host certainly wouldn't risk the apokalypse so that one schlomo on Earth doesn't go dark. No Angel lifted a finger when the YED was about to have his army released and everything.

Now methinks there almost has to be something about Dean that Lilith wanted and that's why Dean's soul was not up for deals and that the Angels couldn't risk falling into Lilith's hands in time.

What this could be? No idea.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

However, if they saved Dean and - likely - fully knowing it would break a seal - they know what the other seals are, just not which Lilith targets in advance - why did they do it?

Yes, that's the crux of it. We know they want to confuse things. Grey area, blah, blah, so I can totally see them setting it up so that Heaven made such a big, risky move. But why now? And why Dean? Why would they risk the apocalypse? I mean, we know Heaven's not opposed to wiping out the human race. That's why the whole Rapture and Fire from the sky mythology exists. But what could be a worse fate for humanity, in the eyes of its creator, than to possibly be destroyed?

Hmmmmmmmm...

And I like the idea that it's something specific about Dean, though I think maybe it won't be something we especially like. mummyluvr314 has a lot of great meta about that particular thing. And I don't want to say what I think it might be, because most of my Dean girl friends would smite me. LOL.

[mummyluvr314.livejournal.com]

Is it possible that Anna couldn't hear them before because they weren't on Earth? That Castiel flew down, saved, Dean, and then stuck around? Like, she can't hear them all, but she can hear the ones that are here? That's what I got from it.

I do think that Dean either going to Hell or getting pulled from the Pit was the first Seal. It's possible Dean went downstairs was the trigger, because Lilith was viciously happy about his death. Then she could start opening Seals, but she got scared of Sam's powers and it took her a while to get the ball rolling. But once she did, and Heaven noticed what Sam was up to as well, they broke Dean free (possibly breaking another Seal, because being responsible for bringing Lucifer 2 steps closer to freedom won't mess with his mind or anything), and Season 4 began.

Also, I'd heard that Azazel was one of the Grigori, who Fell because he did the nasty with a human (resulting in Nephilim and the Great Flood). He also gave humans some knowledge of weapons and cosmetics, I believe (little fuzzy on the first, but I'm sure about the second).

Dude. What am I gonna do with this useless knowledge about demons and angels once the show is over.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd forgotten about the not having been around for 2000 years thing when I made this post, though I think it really doesn't matter why she could hear them now so much as why all this is happening now. Just the question that made me dig deeper.

I have to admit not sharing a lot of the knowledge about angels and demons, because so much of it is convoluted and different books say different things. The only thing I really remember about Azazel, because we pegged him for our big bad in the Virtual season (before it was revealed on the show) was that he felt beign made of smoke and fire made him more perfect than creatures made of dust and really had a deep and abiding dislike of humans, refused to bow down to them as God's favorites. Could he have raped a human woman? Certainly. As a way to defile God's perfect creations.

But again, one text says one thing and another something different. And from what I hear coming down from Kripke and crew is they pretty much get a general feel for the mythology and then make of it what they want. So, anything could mean anything. Which is why I get so frustrated and start beating my head against a wall.

I had a lot more I wanted to put into this post. Damn work! But yeah, I wonder if maybe Azazel's plan was to make us all his children, like with teh demon virus, have his own slave race. I think Heaven would smite us all as opposed to see that happen, which sets up a nice catch-22 for Sam and Dean to be caught in. But I have no idea how Lucifer and Lilith figure into that. So many nasty little twists can arise if we let ourselves speculate about what Heaven would be willing to risk and sacrifice.

Still doesn't tell us why, though. I should really not ever speculate.

*considers locking this post before I really put my foot in somethign, lol*

[i-o-r-h-a-e-l.livejournal.com]

But Dean is really awesome like that. :D

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Lol, yes, that he is. LOL!

[ewanspotter.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think I need to stop making guesses about what will come. I'm always disappointed. And not always because it's a crappy outcome, just that what's in my head is just so much more epic.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL! You and me both. My idea for how I'd like everything to go down would make me smile so hard, which means, I'm just destined to be disappointed, cuz I'm never right. But there's the rare occassion where something better than I imagined comes to pass. I can hope for that, right?

[ewanspotter.livejournal.com]

We can ALL hope. I do like to be surprised.

[thestraychild.livejournal.com]

I think that it's certainly not impossible. If anything it seems very in keeping with the way Heaven seems to operate within the fandom. It certainly would explain why an angel like Castiel may start to have a crisis of faith. Maybe Heaven isn't as squeaky clean as we've all been lead to believe?

What's really ironic though, is that for all Azazel's scheming and conniving, he probably wound up playing right into Heaven's hands. Furthering the Big Guy's plans.

Wonder what he'd think of that!