Wishful Thinking aka Pre-emptive Meta

[ht_murray]

For those of you wanting hard facts, not one single thing I say in here is going to be cited.

I'll state these all as facts, but they aren't, just bullet points that I will explain later.

This is all speculation, but some of it is tied into future spoilers, so I will mention those as I think of them.

Some of these points are going to sound a bit random and far-fetched. I figure if I'm going to speculate, there's no fun in shooting fish in a barrel. I want to shoot them outta the air while I'm at it. Though I'm not sure why people shoot fish in a barrel. I think a net would be more effective. In this case, though, I rather hate net speculation where every single possibility is just thrown out on the table and no conclusions drawn. I promise that while I address a lot of possibilities, I will make a conclusion at the end where I say what I WOULD LIKE to happen. Not a prediction by any means. Predictions at this point, as my grandpa so eloquently put it, are "about as good as a fart in a whirlwind."

In conclusion, fish will be shot out of the sky. It just might take me awhile to hit one. Bear with me, or ya know, skip around to the points that interest you.

Anything written in blue was added this morning before I crossposted. The rest of the meta was written directly following It's a Terrible Life. (4.17).

Upcoming Reveals--Entirely Speculation for End of Season 4 and Season 5
Anything in italics is something I don't feel strongly about but still decided to toss in, because what's speculation if not grasping at straws?


-Lucifer will rise.
-One of the Winchesters will be Lucifer's vessel.
-The brothers will be against each other for a time, but it will not be Sam vs. Dean.
-Ruby is not who she says she is. She's working Azazel's plan. Possibly one of his kids.
-Azazel's plan is to take out Lucifer and Lilith.
-Zachariah is a traitor.
-One of the Winchesters will kill Lucifer.
(And I'm going to go out on a limb and construct a wild scenario as to how. Obviously that's my personal spin and nothing more.)

There's also one very controversial spoiler involving Anna that I will address in my conclusion at the end, but I don't feel like the source is reliable enough to even call it a legitimate spoiler at this point.

These are just bullet points for organizational purposes. None of this is fact. It's just easier to present a few things up front so you'll know if there's anything here that interests you..

Lucifer will rise

Supporting Points

The title of the season finale is Lucifer Rising. The seals story line can't go on forever. It's about played out. At this point, we know there are traitors amongst the angels, so it's highly unlikely that they're going to be able to protect the seals successfully. Also, I think when the final seal breaks, Lucifer walks, and that begins the Apocalypse. I don't think it's the end of the end. But I could be wrong. I guess what I'm saying is, Lucifer rising is not the worst possible thing that can happen, so there's still room for plot development after that happens. There's really no reason not to go there.

Opposing Point

Does anyone really think this isn't going to happen?

One of the Winchesters will be Lucifer's vessel

WE INTERRUPT YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED META

I"m going to state this up front. While I will present arguments for and against one of the brothers being Lucifer's vessel, I am going to go with the assumption that one of them will be. It's come to my attention that there's some misconceptions and disagreements floating around fandom based on the implications of this. So, before continuing, here's your chance to express a couple of key opinions that may affect how you read the rest of this meta. Please take the poll before reading on.


(There was a poll here but it wasn't working, boo!hiss LJ, boo!hiss).

Thank you for your input, and now here's mine.

A lot of people are assuming or taking for granted that the "most evil" or "less good" brother will be Lucifer's vessel. And then we all butt heads trying to prove one is better than the other. Fandom gets hung up on this point, and unnecessarily so. Here's why.

If there is indeed going to be a point where one of the boys is possessed by Lucifer, it will most likely have everything to do with strategy and nothing to do with moral character.

For what it's worth, I find Sam and Dean both on pretty even moral kilter. There is no Saint Dean or Saint Sam. And just because Dean's been dubbed righteous in canon does not mean that Sam's been dubbed NON righteous. It just means Sam wasn't in Hell to be tortured until he broke. Why do people assume that if one is dubbed "good" the other must be dubbed "evil?" That's an awfully pessimistic view of the whole situation. We don't know that to be true at all. What we do know is Dean is the poster child for Gluttony and Lust, and Sam's working the Wrath and Pride (I'm the better hunter. I'm stronger. I can control my powers.) The only one of the seven deadlies I don't really see in either of them is Sloth, and puh-lease do not be telling me that depressive fatigue counts for sloth. Both of them have made questionable decisions, both for the same reason: because each one loves his brother and would do anything for him. When it comes right down to it, they're both more righteous than any of us sitting here picking nits on the internet while most likely engaging in one or more, possibly ALL, of the seven deadlies. I might be a Dean girl, but if I, as a person, was even half as good a person as I believe Sam to be, I'm pretty sure I'd be a lot better than I am. And if I, as a person was even half as good a person as I view Dean to be, I'd be completely in love with myself. Hee!

So, what is the point? The point is, it doesn't matter whether one is a "better" person than the other. It doesn't matter what the moral character of the vessel is. Demons and angels can have anyone they want, right?

As far as we know, based on canon, a vessel is chosen a)because it's there (Devil's Trap and the jumping bean demons) b)because it's invited (He was a righteous man. He prayed for this.) or c)because it puts the demon/angel in a position of power or trust with the people it wants to affect.


So, before we continue, we need to stop with the thinking that if one is possessed by Lucifer, he has 'gone Evil'. The two things are mutually exclusive.

END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

So, Lucifer Needs a Winchester Meat Suit

Supporting Points

So far we haven't seen anything on the side of Heaven or Hell that didn't need a vessel to walk on Earth. I don't think the show has budget to pull off Lucifer walking around in his true form. We already know that the boys would kill a human if it meant taking out something evil, so there'd be no real shelter for Lucifer in the body of any other human. Assuming that Lucifer believes, as we do, that the Winchesters are his major threat, he'd have some protection from one by possessing the body of the other. He could also pick someone else close to the boys like Azazel picked John, but there aren't that many of those types of people left, and I, for one have no interest in seeing a possessed Bobby. It just makes sense, to me, that he'd pick one of the brothers from a strategic standpoint, since they are each other's weakness as has been pointed out time and again.

Then, there are the spoilers looming that promise Sam vs. Dean. Honestly, I don't see that happening unless one of them is just not himself. They bicker and fight but actually war between themselves with the end of the world looming and a common enemy? I just don't see that. If he doesn't get offed immediately upon rising, I think he'll hang out in one of our brothers.

Opposing Points

They still have their anti-possession tattoos. Who knows how much if any affect they'd have on Lucifer?

If there is a vessel, it could theoretically be anyone. There could be another Christopher Heyerdahl or Fred Lehne on the horizon. Has anyone heard mention of one?

I think there've been spoilers suggesting that Lucifer may be more of a looming presence than something physical. I'm not sure if that means we will only hear mention of his deeds, much like we heard of the breaking seals word of mouth or whether it means he'll be there but disguised as someone we know. Could be a point for or against Winchester possesion, I guess.

I just like this idea too much to let it go. So, the question is, which one would Lucifer pick?

Sam as Lucifer's vessel

Supporting

What do we know of Sam's destiny? We know Azazel gave him power and Ruby bolsters them, and that John told Dean that Sam needed to be saved or maybe killed. What does all of that mean? That his powers could possibly be used for evil. So, if Lucifer was looking for a sports car, Sam's probably the way to go.

According to Kripke's original plan for Season 3, Sam was going to save Dean from Hell and go over the edge as a result.

There's also the Lilith/Samael connection I've seen tossed around. I don't do research if I can help it. I don't even watch the episodes more than once if I can help. I think the only two I've watched more than once from this season are Lazarus Rising and On the Head of a Pin. So I really don't know what the Lilith/Samael connection is. But I suppose if we're to believe Sam IS Samael just because his name is similar, then there'd be the connection to Lilith and by the back door, Lucifer. Okay, so pretty much Samael is another name for Lucifer or vice versa. Sam does sound a lot like Samael, strictly phonectically speaking.

Added on 5-14-- Also, YED did throw in the whole 100% pure Sammy question right before he bit it.

Other evidence of a dark destiny ahead...The whole blood drinking thing kinda smacks of a giant "in your face," to God. (It seems feasible that the Lord of Hell would employ that tactic in his plan to hone a disciple. (Again, assuming he needs a disciple.) I'll talk more about that later, too.


Opposing

What did John really know? Not much that we're aware of. Just that Sam had been "tainted" by Azazel. I'm imagining tainted to be John's word, not saying it's mine. Does Lucifer need Sam's powers? I don't know, but I'm guessing Lucifer's more powerful than Azazel ever was or else Azazel would have been ruler of Hell, right? Lilith's commonly tied to Lucifer(though not exclusively and not in every myth), sometimes referred to as his wife, and yet she's tried to kill Sam more than once. Seems like if he was the intended vessel of Lucifer, Lilith would be looking out for him instead of trying to off him. (Of course, this assumes Lilith's got at least a little loyalty to Lucifer and isn't planning to stab him in the back.)

Of course, this was written before much of the speculation had surfaced about Lilith actually being the final seal. For what it's worth, I think she is, but I also think she didn't know that until recently. So, I stick to the proposal that she wouldn't have bee trying to kill Sam if she thought he was Lucifer's vessel, though I will concede that now she may just want him dead to protect herself, since he's the one most likely to take her out.

Kripke said that, as of six episodes into season 4 we were in the same place as we would have been if season 3 had gone according to plan, arc-wise, which means his idea of Sam going dark-side might only have been "perceived" as dark-side, because season four's almost over, and I haven't really seen any evil. If we've already passed that point he'd originally planned to reach in Season 3, then whatever level of "evil" Sam's supposed to reach doesn't seem to be directly related to the Lucifer arc. ETA: Unless Kripke also planned for Lucifer to rise in Season 3, which, whoa, never saw that coming.

It's also possible that Lucifer fears Sam has the power to kill him, (and I think rightfully so), in which case he has three options, a)kill Sam, b)possess Sam and keep him from using the powers or c)possess someone close to Sam who Sam would be reluctant to hurt.

As far as the Sam = Samael connection... I think Kripke said he picked the names Sam and Dean from a novel (don't want to misquote the title,) so, I'm not sure their actual names have that much clout as devices of speculation, but I will concede it's possible he changed Sal to Sam specifically because it looked like Samael.

In my opinion, Sam as Lucifer's vessel is just too easy. It's been alluded to since Season 1 that Sam has a dark destiny. They have a whole other season to attack after this one. They have room for, and in my opinion, they NEED one more big plot twist. Sam being possessed by Lucifer might be anticlimactic. Though, pretty hot, I suppose, if you swing that way.



Dean as Lucifer's vessel

Supporting

Alistair said that Dean left part of himself in Hell, and if Alistair was looking to get the two of them back together, (he did say something about seeing if he could get the two of them back together again) I don't think he was referring to Dean's creamy, gooey filling nor anything that would be beneficial to Dean as a human.

There are many possible interpretations of the phrase "part of himself." If Dean is the intended vessel for Lucifer, then it could have been referring to his humanity, OR it could have been meant to imply that he left his "better half" or his intended partner.

Lilith always had a hard-on for Dean. In Jus in Bello she called Dean either really "cute" or "good-looking." After that episode aired, I made the offhand comment that she wanted Dean to be her 'baby Daddy.' I was being flip, but she has always seemed to have an eye for Dean. She could possibly have just been fawning over the first seal, or she could have been hand-picking hubby's next incarnation.

Also, Dean's the only Winchester who's never been possessed.

From a creative perspective, it would be an awesome twist. I've always sorta wanted that promise that Sam coerced out of Dean in Playthings to get turned around on him and see what he'd do.

I've heard the argument from a lot of Dean girls that they think Dean being possessed or to be Lucifer's vessel would be ruining the character. Personally, I think it would be excellent character growth. What's the worst possible thing that could happen to Dean? He becomes what he fears most and essentially goes back to Hell (metaphorically speaking). A lot of this season has been focused on his fears. As Lucifer's vessel, he could face them head on. Belly of the beast. Bull by the horns. What will there be left to fear of Hell if he faces Lucifer and wins? It would also be the perfect way for him to find out and prove to himself and everyone else that he IS strong enough and possibly stronger than John or Sam.(I have a theory about that, too, which I'll talk about later.

I know a lot of you are thinking, "No, the worst thing that could happen to Dean is he loses Sam." And there was a time I'd have agreed with that. Except the cold, hard truth of the matter is, he already has. That Sam is gone forever, and he's not coming back. That's not to say he won't be bigger and better than ever. That's called character growth, and Dean might as well have been trying to stop a bathtub faucet with his big toe as stop Sam from becoming what he's becoming. To be honest, I've been able to forgive a lot of Sam's actions in this season just by telling myself they're growing pains. For the record, I don't think what he's growing into will be an evil monster. The pubescent phase of it just makes him kinda irritable.

And for what it's worth, that snarky, cocky Dean everyone loves is gone for good, too, at least the put on version of him. Both boys have been to a place you don't come back from unchanged. They don't get fixed just because a few thousand fangirls yell at their television sets. I do believe both boys will come out better in the end. I think we'll get a snarky cocky Dean again, but when it comes back for good, it will be real confidence and not some mask, a cockiness he's earned by facing the darkness and coming out the other side.

But I digress. Ha!

As far as the angels, Castiel seems rather uninformed (or at least he did until recently, and now I think he knows too much and is having to play both sides in order to not give away his loyalty. about what anything means, and Zachariah said Dean would do everything he was supposed to do, ALL of it. I know I'm not the only one who thought that was ominous sounding? If Dean is intended as Lucifer's vessel, it's entirely possible the angels would have busted him out anyway. Either to prevent Lucifer from gaining him in Hell or because they want him here waiting for Lucifer when he rises, depending if they're still loyal to God or not.

(Also added on 5-14-- I should mention that, before I watched this show, I always figured the Apocalypse to be God's end game for when he'd given up on humanity and the Legion of Hell and maybe even Lucifer to be the blade, since he already promised no flood. So, I'm not entirely convinced God opposes the apocalypse at this point. So, the blood-drinking thing might be a slap in the face to Him, but might just as well turn God against humanity as against Lucifer. Being chosen by God, for whatever it's worth, might as much mean agent of the apocalypse as opposition to it)

Opposing

This one goes in both categories, I guess, but Dean's the only Winchester who's never been possessed. It has been whispered in the deepest corners of fandom (aka fanfiction) that he's too good to be possessed. Okay, maybe there was a time when even I wanted to believe that. Not so much anymore.

Uriel mentioned that he'd intended for Alistair to break free and kill Dean. So, either he has no clue who Lucifer's vessel is supposed to be, or he doesn't like to think of Lucifer wearing a mud monkey, OR he does know who Lucifer's vessel is and it isn't Dean. font color="blue"> To be honest, I'm not sure why Uriel wanted to kill Dean, but he also wanted to kill Sam, if I recall, so I think Uriel just liked to kill. Who knows, he might've wanted to be Lucy's favorite...

Most of the arrows from above have been pointing toward Dean as the savior and Sam as the one who will need to be saved. (Personally, I've always found that whole line of thought just splits the responsibility unfairly. They need to be responsible for their own action's not each other's.)

The brothers will be against each other for awhile

Supporting

(Added on 5-14-- I don't think any of this is spoilery or speculation at this point. As of 4.21, most of it's already on the table.)

John told Dean he might have to kill Sam. Sam made Dean promise to do so. Dean doesn't want to. While I don't think that is THE conflict, I do think that was the split. As Sam said in IMTOD, they were just starting to be brothers again, and then in the same episode, the hatchet falls, and no matter how well they work together and what they accomplish in the next seasons, that's always been looming, the one thing they cannot agree on, the point where SamnDean becomes Sam and Dean. It's been going down this road for a very long time.

Spoilers, abound, some of them just this. Sam VS. Dean.

This season, they're not only not on the same page most of the time, they don't even seem to be reading the same book. They're both completely isolated and shut down. I get that it's fear, for both of them. And I don't think they're going to hug and chat it out and save the day. That only works in fanfic, and not the good ones. (is glad I took down all my old fanfic where they hugged and cried a lot.)

The fandom wants to kill each other, why not the actual boys. Art imitates life,right? Okay, so that's sarcasm.

Opposing

I really can't think of any way around this, so I'm not going to try. The saving grace in this being, my next point:

It will not be Sam vs. Dean. Not really

Supporting

Does anyone remember a little show called Buffy? Remember when Buffy and Angel were all in love and then they had sex, and WHAM! Angel lost his soul? Angel without his soul, Angelus, made Buffy's life Hell for the whole rest of the season, and yet, she didn't kill him until the entire fate of the world was at stake. Why? Because she still loved Angel no matter what Angelus did.

I think it will be the same for Sam and Dean. One of them will be fundamentally different and push the other's buttons, make his life a living Hell. They will be locked in conflict. BUT the war will be in the acts of war, strike and counterstrike against the deeds not ever Sam wanting to hurt or kill Dean or Dean wanting to hurt or kill Sam. Oh, I think it will get personal. Anytime an evil force has access to personal information like memories they're going to use them as weapons. Remember Skin, Asylum, Devil's Trap, etc, etc. It will get personal, but I think, and this is important, that if one comes to the decision to kill the other, he will consider his brother a sacrifice that he has to make in order to stop the greater evil. It will never be that he thinks his brother has to die because he is evil.

Reading that over, I sound way more certain of it than I actually am. Remember the title of this meta? Yeah, that's wishful thinking on my part. I'll admit it.

But what it comes down to is, in the first three seasons and the beginning of season four, there was always a distinction between the human in the beast and the beast itself. Meg Masters, Lenore, Madison, the dude in Metamorphosis, etc. The only human that I can think of, off the top of my head who approached being actually evil was Gordon, and he chose his path. Now, don't argue with me about whether he was evil or not. I really don't know and I don't really care. The point is, as long as there's humanity woven into the mix, the boys have shown the ability and desire to differentiate. I think they'd be even more inclined to believe in the humanity of their brothers than they would in the average person.

Opposing

I think my argument so far has been that in order for them to ever truly be against each other, one would have to be truly evil. Even in Hell, it's been purported to take hundreds of years to complete strip away humanity. I don't know if there's any way I can make myself believe either one would be truly evil. So, again, my bias shows.

At this point, everything will be almost pure speculation and, therefore, even more heavily biased than what I've already presented, so I'll just present things as I see them.

Ruby is not who she says she is

So, how does Ruby fit in? And why do we care who she is? Well, because Sam's boosting his powers with her blood, and so it's kind of important what that actually involves.

As I mentioned before, the whole blood drinking thing is a direct affront to God himself. It's one of the things specifically forbidden in the Bible. Now, to be fair, somewhere in the same vicinity as the drinking of blood is forbade, so too is eating shellfish and cloven-hooved animals, and blah, blah, blah. Obviously people pick and choose the rules they follow. Why should this one infraction be any worse than the rest? And at the last supper, didn't Christ call the wine his blood and then tell his disciples to drink of it?

Why should Ruby's blood increase Sam's power at all? Didn't she tell Dean that she was once human? If she's just a run of the mill demon, and she can give Sam strength, then why did Azazel infect the psychic kids himself instead of just sending an army of lackeys out to do it? And how come Eva and Jake didn't need to drink blood? And how is it demon blood coming out of the host's arm and not human blood?

Yes, much confusion ensues.

For me, it comes down to a couple of possibilities. Either Ruby's not the Ruby from last season who was just a plain old demon who used to be human, or the blood is not as important as the act of drinking it.

Azazel didnt' just run around breaking into houses and infecting babies. He made deals with the mothers and then infected babies with his own blood on their six month birthdays. This all implies to me that not only does it have to be Azazel's blood, but there had to have been some magic involved that required the deal and the specific time of infection. Let's not even talk about how he knew there'd be a six month old baby in the house in ten years to collect on his deal. My mind is just boggled on that. At any rate, the powers seem to be specifically tied to Azazel's blood. Oh, and Azazel had a thing for blood. Remember the phone calls to Daddy? So, it doesn't surprise me that blood is the tie.

Okay, so Sam got powerful drinking the blood from that demon woman in 4.20, so either any old demon blood will do, which suggest to me that drinking it a)either really isn't about the blood, b)or the demon was one of Azazel's children (unlikely) or c)it's an opportunistic infection that can only take hold because Azazel's blood opened the door.

But how does Ruby fit in? If it must be Azazel's blood, then she'd almost have to be tied to Azazel as well. Maybe one of his many 'kids', like Meg!Demon and the Tom dude from the warehouse?

I've also heard whisperings that she's Lilith in disguise, but I'm not really buying that one. Not that I'd be surprised if it turned out to be true.

Or Ruby's not DOING what we think she is

It's possible there's nothing special about the blood at all. It's symbolic. Remember the Garden of Eden? The forbidden fruit and the serpent? The serpent convinced Eve to eat of the fruit and as a result, they were 'empowered' with conscience. Think about it, Ruby all wrapped around Sam, petting and cooing, "You can have it, Sssssssammy." She's leading him astray. I don't know that she's trying to make him evil, because again, I don't know that her blood has any power at all, but she's trying to fill Dean's place, the Dean who's made a life out of trying to protect and defend the 'kid' in Sam, keep him innocent and human. Sam might not be getting any power from the blood at all, it's just that the physical act of doing so helps him get past the mind block he's put up against the power in his attempt to stay human.

But then, we do have the spoilers that hint he may actually be addicted to the blood. That sorta messes with the theory that the blood isn't important so much as the act. But there are certain habits that can have intoxicating effects. Anyone have a horse that cribs? Basically they cause endorphins to be released into their own brain by engaging in a compulsive behavior. That could explain it. Or Ruby's hopped up on drugs that Sam IS addicted to. Or she could be a higher level demon with more power than Azazel and attempting to override Azazel's influence.

Truth is, we don't know what the blood does to Sam, because we don't know what he could've accomplished without it. We don't know his original powers died with Azazel. We don't know that his original powers were 'evil'. For all we know, the blood could be stopping him reaching his true powers by pushing them to the background while they take the front. All we know is addiction is a state of "powerlessness" or "lack of control" and those who take away power are not helping anyone but themselves.

I don't know what I believe in this case, but I lean toward her being one of Azazel's demon spawn, maybe even Meg!Demon herself. Though, I think I like even more the idea that it's psychological and the power's always been his. But whatever. Just throwing that out there. At any rate, I do not think her intentions are good. Not at all.

Which brings me to:

Azazel's Plan

Now, that's the big question, isn't it? What was Azazel's plan? First, I have to say this. I think there's a certain faction of fandom who's holding out hope that Azazel wanted to stop the Apocalypse and Sam was his weapon of choice and therefore Sam is OMG SO GOOD, and WHY CANT EVERYONE SEE THAT?!!! I will say, that yes, I think Sam's the weapon to take out Lucifer, but I don't think Azazel had any good intentions at all. I can see how people might think so, since Lilith has tried to kill Sam several times and Casey said that the demons were choosing sides between Sam/Azazel and Lucifer. Also, there's the rumor that Azazel was one of the angels who fornicated with human women and spawned the Nephilim. I'm not saying that's untrue, but I don't think, if he did, that it was out of some deep and abiding affection for humans. Personally, I think if he fornicated with human women, it was to defile them. It's a pretty common practice in war to rape the enemy's women, right? And if he gave man weapons? So we'd use them... preferably against each other.

Wait? Did you miss that part where he's an angel? Well, yes, in the research I have done back when I did research, he is said to have been an angel and he fell like Lucifer. (Kinda amuses me that people who say they hate the angel storyline and the angels in general are kinda rooting for the Azazel is an angel and therefore so is Sam storyline to come out, but I digress.) Anyway, like Lucifer and a lot of the other angels, Azazel refused to bow to man and was cast out of Heaven. The djinn were his children, blah, blah, blah.

Which brings about this question: If both Lucifer and Azazel were cast out of Heaven because they refused to bow to Man, then why would the demons choose between them? What's the rift between Azazel and Lucifer? Aren't they all just BAD?

In my opinion, the answer's simple. Lucifer has the power and Azazel wants it. Every king lived in fear of assassination and coup, why should the king of Hell be any different?

In my humble opinion, Azazel's grand plan was to take out Lucifer, but I'm assuming it's more complicated than that, since Castiel sent Dean back in time to find out what they know of Azazel. I have to say, I don't know what more there is. Does there need to be more? I don't know.

But here's the grudge. If Azazel wants to take out Lucifer, and Lucifer wants to start the Apocalypse and destroy the world, then where does humanity fit in? Um, I think we're screwed either way. How many times have we seen the same thing here amongst ourselves. People are unhappy with the current leader, they organize behind the next best thing, overthrow the leader, and end up just as bad or worse off when the one they rallied behind reveals he has no intention of honoring any of his promises?

From the perspective of humanity, it would seem that Azazel and Lucifer are both our enemy. And yet, they're not exactly bosom buddies to each other. I think of it this way: Azazel is the Spike to Lucifer's Angelus. He has to get Lucifer out of the way so he can have what he wants.

As humans, which political party do we support? Azazel, of course. ( I always liked Spike better anyway) The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He's the lesser of two evils because, not only is he dead, but he was never as powerful as Lucifer, and probably could never have started the Apocalypse.

But, Tracy, you say, Azazel is dead, can he still take out Lucifer. And then I say, DUH. (Okay, you guys all saw that coming, and I'm just having strange conversations with myself because it's 4 a.m. Cut a girl some slack.) Of course, Sam. Sam is the weapon against Lucifer. But who didn't see that coming?

I imagine, if Azazel was still alive and kicking, he wouldn't exactly be building water parks on earth after he took out Lucifer.

That being said, there is another option. We could rally behind the angels! Only one problem with that. Since both Azazel and Lucifer were once angels, they still have friends in high places. Heck, even Anna who'd fallen, still managed to call in some old favors once she got her grace back.

Zachariah is a traitor.
(Of all these points, this is the one I believe the least.)

Supporting Points

My primary argument for this one, and I'm not ashamed to say it, is I hated him. Telling Dean to just accept his fate and stop whining is about the worst possible way to get anything accomplished that I can imagine. It has to be a head game. But that's just my opinion. Doesn't really support the argument. So here is my lame argument about that particular point.

Point one. He's snarky. So, what? Not everyone who has a sense of humor is trying to hide something. However, there is a precedent for the villains in our story to be amused with themselves. Azazel, Ruby, Meg, Uriel, the Trickster. That's my weakest argument, so I'm not going into that anymore.

His credentials? He's Castiel's superior. What do we know about Castiel's superiors? Castiel's superiors frowned upon him showing human emotion and apparently reprimanded him into Uriel's command. They disapproved of his actions and handling of Dean. They ordered the torturing of Alistair. They told Uriel (if we're to believe anything Uriel said) to stop hunting the "demon" that was killing angels. Uriel had to be getting orders from somewhere. He can't have been the only angel who knew that it takes an angel to kill an angel. Someone above him had to have known what was going on. There's at least one traitor superior to Uriel.

Zachariah called his vessel "stinking" or something like that, and to me it sounds a lot like Uriel's "Mud Monkey" comment, which Castiel said was bordering blasphemy. Zachariah also listed fornication as something Dean should be thankful for. It's been pointed out more than once that Lust is a deadly sin. Angels aren't supposed to be able to appreciate that. Anna only did because she was human at the time. (I know this ruins a lot of Dean/Castiel fic, but I think the stipulation in those is that Castiel becomes more human and therefore can appreciate sex.) All in all, of the angels we've met so far, he reminds me most of Uriel and the fallen angel, Azazel.

Okay, following the last two episodes, I'm more convinced of this than ever, and if you saw all the promos, I'm pretty sure one line of dialogue gives that away. I'm also convinced that Castiel is trapped between corrupt angels and the coming apocalypse, but I think Castiel's still interested in saving humanity. Whether that's his choice or because he believes God wants to save humanity (which we really don't know, do we?) is hard to say.

Opposing Points

On the opposing side, none of the angels have exactly been nice guys. The whole "whining" thing could very well be how angels see all human pain and emotion. They're not supposed to like humans. That doesn't mean every angel who expresses a dislike of humans is willing to turn away from God.

(Actually, now that I think on it, I don't feel any resentment toward Zachariah for saying what he did. I should actually have expected an angel to say something like that. It's been pretty well established that angels are dicks and don't give a rat's ass about Dean. He's the red-headed stepchild they have to watch out for and nothing more. They want something from him and will say/do anything to get it. People are supposed to be capable of empathy and understanding. Angels are not. I forgive Zachariah for saying what he said because, by being a dick, he kinda said a whole lot about people who agree with him so I don't have to. Even if I kinda just did.)

Obviously, I argued harder for the supporting side of that argument. That's my bias, but the opposing arguments ring very true for me as well. I just think it would be yummy if he was, indeed,a traitor. We know there are more out there. Why not him? And there's also the possibility that he's not a traitor, that he does know God's will, and God's the one who wants the apocalypse to go down.

Anyway, so whether Zachariah's a traitor or Anna is, or even Castiel (gasp! Say it ain't so!) that's not really the point. The point is, we've been dealing with the demon contingent for a long while. We know way more about them. When it comes to taking out Lucifer, I'm going to bet on the demon contingent (Azazel). There's something to be said for the enemy you know.

But I don't think the angels are useless. Not by a long shot. But I'll get to that, too.

Anyway, I jumped the gun here on the next point, but here it is:

One of the Winchesters will kill Lucifer

Um, I dunno. Did I really need to say this? So far they've taken out just about every big player that's come against them. I don't know if there's anyone who doesn't think one of the boys will take out Lucifer, but I will say it's always possible one of the angels will get in the kill shot. That wouldn't be nearly as much fun, though.

So, which Winchester will it be?

We have Sam with the mighty, might hand of ipecac and Dean with the Fate to stop the Apocalypse.

We have the knowledge that both Azazel and Lucifer were fallen angels and that only an angel can kill an angel. Will it take an angel to kill Lucifer? Maybe, since angels can remove their own grace it's possible also to torture it out of them in Hell? I don't know. What I do know is they made a point of saying it takes an angel to kill an angel and then Uriel called Lucifer "brother" to remind us that yes, Lucifer is an angel. We have to assume that it will take an angel to kill Lucifer.

Hmm, Dean killed Azazel. Does that mean he's an angel? I don't know. I rather hope not. I prefer my heroes to be human, but that's beside the point. Also, angels are dicks at this point, right? What does it mean that Dean killed Azazel? Given the way show works, it could mean a whole lot or it could mean nothing. We don't know whether Azazel was an angel in the show's version of him, though if he wasn't then it's unlikely that Sam would be able to kill Lucifer either. We also know that Castiel assumed Dean would be able to hear his true voice. Maybe he knows something about Dean that we don't. The point is, we don't know.

And Sam with all his serious mojo working seems to be on the fast track to being strong enough to kill Lucifer. If his powers come from Azazel and Azazel is considered a fallen angel in this mythology, then it seems he's a good candidate for the job as well. Which supports the idea that getting Sam to drink demon blood isn't doing him any favors, especially if the demon blood interferes with the angelic element. I don't think that makes Sam an angel, because he was changed after birth, not born that way, unless he was REBORN that way after Dean resurrected him. Azazel seemed pretty pleased that Dean brought Sam back, like it was in the works the whole time, and he did say it might not be 100% Sam anymore. He might very well have remade Sam in his own image, but I choose to believe he's a human with some angel powers. Besides, we've kinda established that angels are dicks, so why would anyone want either of the boys to be one?

In my opinion, Sam will kill Lucifer with his angel powers. Dean has his fate, to stop the Apocalypse, and Sam has his, to kill Lucifer. But, but, but, but! If Sam kills Lucifer doesn't that rob Dean of his Fate? Um, no, but to address that I'm going to just have to come out and say how I'd like things to work out. That requires more big letters.

I've cast the net. Which fish will I shoot?
My lamed-ass speculations never come true. So, you can quit reading here if you want.

Here's where I flat out say what I would like to see happen. It's not what I think will happen or anything that I know will happen. Basically, I'm just sick to death of all the bickering and wank and bitching this season, and I have been puzzling over in my mind wondering whether there was any possible way this could work out so that every dog gets at least a little bone. Kripke and Co have no obligation to please any of us, so I have no idea what they're planning to do. And that's that.

But if I were going to write it, it would go something like this.

Lucifer rises into Dean. Here's the red herring. Lucifer has angels on his side working against the other angels. They're going to be working against our boys and the good angels (assuming there are any). That's a major problem because they're in positions of power and inside the fortress. So, what better way to counteract that then to have your own man inside the fortress? I see Dean was, not so much possessed as sort of an angelic wire tap. In my wildest dreams, he allows it to happen, i.e. messes with his tattoo, or, like Castiel's vessel, prays for it. But that's not necessary. It could also be something way more traumatic, like he just can't deal with his depression anymore. We've established emotional turmoil to be an 'in' for demons.

I think the best way for Dean to stop the Apocalypse is from behind enemy lines. It's as simple as that.

Now, if I'm going to address the spoiler wherein it's been suggested that Anna gives Dean angel powers (which I'm not sure I believe and don't really want) I could go with it being a power like the one Castiel thought he already had; the ability to hear and communicate with angels. That would certainly help him share his intel.

I think being Lucifer's vessel is exactly what Dean needs. He lives in fear now. He fears going back to Hell. He fears failing. He fears not being good enough, not being strong enough. If he can put himself in the belly of the beast and not only use it to his advantage but somehow manage to break through it, which neither John nor Sam have been able to do, I think he'd finally regain his sense of self worth.

At any rate, I think for at least part of the time Dean will be aware of what's going on.

I don't think Sam will. Right now, they really don't confide in each other, and as powerful as Sam's getting, I have a feeling that, if he knew what Dean was planning, he wouldn't let it happen. At the same time, it'd be way more dramatic with Sam hunting Lucifer to get Dean back as opposed to sitting back and waiting for intel to come in. I dunno.

But the long and short of it would be, Dean as the vessel for Lucifer. He uses the position to discover Lucifer's allies and thwart their plans, thus stopping the Apocalypse as is his Fate.

Sam hunts Lucifer, honing his angel powers, (Any one up for a Castiel rapid-detox to free up the angel blood?)and once the apocalypse is thwarted, there will be a standoff. Quite possibly there will be no way to kill Lucifer and not kill Dean, which would put a real damper on the 'we won the war' festivities. Personally, I've always felt like the Trickster's message when he said nothing good ever came of them sacrificing themselves for each other, was that the only way to end the cycle was for one of them to sacrifice the other. I think then, Sam will choose to kill Lucifer, because it's the right thing to do, (and that little promise he made Dean make way back in Playthings is completely turned around on him).

So, then what happens? Dean goes on to earn his final reward and Sam goes looking for picket fences? Um, well, I guess that's one possibility, but not a good one.

Possibly, Sam kills Lucifer and Dean doesn't die as they'd feared.

Possibly, Sam kills Lucifer and Dean is saved, but it's a little like Highlander and the dark quickening-- the amount of power he has to use to kill Lucifer is more than he can handle and he's turned. Then Dean has to save him all over again.

Sam kills Lucifer and has an aneurysm and the Limp!Sam girls get their fix. (Not a fan of that.)

Um, to be honest, I don't know what happens after that, but I think they both take out Lucifer, they stop the Apocalypse and end up saving each other.

The End

ETA: A few things that I will add specifically for tonight's episode.

-I think Lilith IS the last seal as many have already suggested.

-I think Sam will find out Lilith is the last seal after he's already killed her and therefore opened the door for Lucifer.

-I think Sam will be mighty pissed that Ruby pushed him to kill Lilith and won't believe that she didn't know Lilith was the last seal and will then kill Ruby.

-I think Bobby will die. Yoda dies. It's canon.

-I think we'll find out that Castiel gave up Anna to convince the Lucifer supporting angel contingent that he's on their side, but he will reveal himself to be otherwise.

-I don't know how the rest will go down. I did read a cool episode specific speculation over on deancastiel that suggested Dean and Castiel will do a little body swap this epi. I actually think that would be awesome comic relief. Every episode needs SOME, right?

Comments

[spacemonkey-699.livejournal.com]

*stands and clap*

Wonderful my dear, I enjoyed this. I really have no idea where we're going (not even with all the spoilers!) and I love having all these ideas thrust at me to enjoy.

I keep thinking Kripke is gonna fucking bowl us over and instead of having Sam or Dean be Lucifer's vessel, that Cas will fall or something and Lucifer will jump into him. Uriel seemed to think having Cas on his team made the fight stronger, and we all know Cas sucks at fighting, so unless he's got some sort of power cooking up that we don't know about (which I think is possible, because bitch has to be good at something other than pulling Dean out of hell and looking pretty. And while we're at it, if all those angels went to hell to get Dean, how was Cas the one to get there first? Either he's special in some way, or he's the little angel that could, that slipped through while everyone else was dying. heh)

They say Misha is returning next season...they didn't say Cas. *raises eyebrow suggestively*

Okay. I don't believe they're going there. More than likely it'll be a Winchester boy. They've kept their lips shut tight about the finale, even with the casting really (and we haven't had sides for an ep since ep 18, so obviously some shit is going down that they don't want us to know about) so anything could happen. God, I can't wait.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

LOL, I love you! Is that even possible? I mean, Cas as the vessel. He's like made of light or something same as Lucifer. Can they possess each other/

OH GOD, angelic bodyswap. LOL. K, I'm crazy.

I don't know if I love or hate that everything's kinda looming and there's not much out there as far as spoilers. I want to enjoy it in a way that I usually don't when I'm spoiled, but the main reason I read them to begin with is because I'm afraid I'll be so disappointed and want to know.

I NEED TO KNOW!

But I still plan to stay unspoiled next season.

[spacemonkey-699.livejournal.com]

On a show where they can make it so that Anna gets to keep the same body, I think it could work out that Cas could fall and still be in the same body...that the vessel's soul would get burned out, if it hadn't already. Or something. Show could figure it out. Therefore making him human and able to get possessed by the big Lucy.

Or like, Lucy waltzes in and shoves Cas into another body, LIKE A BODY IN A COMA OR A DEAD BODY, AND CAS IS TRAPPED IN THERE.

I think I read that in a fic....I do love the idea of angelic bodyswap, it's making me lol. Although Lucifer would need a body first...?

Maybe Lucifer will possess some poor bastard, see Cas and say "ooh shiny! Yoink!" and then the body swap will occur. Stop talking, me.

I'm actually really disappointed that no spoilers were slipped at the con. Misha has proven himself to be useless with keeping his mouth shut, and I adore him for it, and Jared is usually known to let a thing or two slip. But NOTHING! They're really holding out on us. It might be a good thing, BUT DAMNIT I WANT NEWS.

[ex-pkabyssin114.livejournal.com]

I don't have much time before I have to go to work, so I'm going to keep this short. HURRAH! I am in love with the idea of Dean being Lucifer's suit. I think that is the only way I will accept that whole idea going down.

Samael is considered, by some, to be the angelic name of Lucifer before he fell. (Some crazy idea about angel's names have to end in 'el'.) Samael was married to Lilith after she split from Adam. I think fandom just likes the similarity in names between Samael and Sam.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

I like the idea, too. I read a few metas that hinted at it way back in the beginning of the season, and while I was always intrigued (God, Jensen would be hot!) I never really thought it was a possibility until recently. I'm not sure exactly what it is that made me decide it was likely or if it was just wishful thinking like I say at the beginning, but I buy it way more than most other scenarios I can come up with.

The problem is, no matter how many scenarios I can come up with Kripke always comes up with the one I didn't.

And thanks for explaining the Samael thing. That makes more sense now. Though, yeah, I think the name doesn't mean anything since we know it was his Grandfather's name.

[grlmonday.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was really enjoyable!

If Dean's the vessel, he may have to fight Lucifer from within, while Sam uses his powers to fight him from without, or to possibly keep Lucifer in check while Dean does his internal battle. Dean may literally have to drag Lucifer back into hell on his own. Perhaps Sam will have the ability to open a portal to hell, and Dean will manage to get Lucifer through it on the inside, with that internal battle I mentioned.

Or, Sam could be possessed and that's why his powers are such a key point. However, I honestly don't see Lucifer as needing Sam's powers. Sam may have gotten to be on even keel with Lucifer, but I don't think he's stronger than Lucifer. He's stronger than Castiel (or any other angel for that matter), but I don't think he has the balls to beat Lucifer. Maybe Sam will be able to hold his own against Lucifer!Dean, while Dean battles on the inside.

Honestly, this show has devoted too much to Sam being so important. It's time for Dean to shine and I really want to see him be the hero of this story arc. No Lucifer!Bobby will do the trick, because Sam and Dean would kill him to save the world. The real threat would be if they had to face killing the other's body.

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I never know how people will respond to my thoguhts.

It's funny how people read into things. Last week, after On the Head of a Pin, my first thought was, "I think they just said Sam's an angel." And I have no idea how I arrived at that conclusion from THAT episode, but it was clear as a bell to me. And then just yesterday I read a review of that episode from someone who said she was going to quit watching because it was obvious that Sam's going evil in a way she can't handle.

It occurred to me that people sorta see what they fear the most because they're looking for it. (So when people say Dean's 'whining' too much, I have decided it's because they're afraid he's stealing the show, and I say, "be afraid, be very afraid.)

Anyway, yes. I've seen lots of speculation saying Sam's going to be Lucifer and Dean's going to have to kill him. And while I don't write that off completely, I don't really see what the point of that scenario would be from a storytelling standpoing, especially if they have a whole other season to tackle still.

I really kinda hope it plays out like this, but as I said, I'm usually wrong.

[samidha.livejournal.com]

First of all... I am with you on Dean being the vessel for Lucifer. I think that'd be an epic win and hope it happens.

I don't mean to wank here, but I kinda wanted to say re: the point on Zachariah: yeah, he is a dick. But I also think someone did need to say something to Dean to snap him out of it, and Sam can't be that person anymore. (Admittedly, when he only had the vaguest recollection of his hunting life, so he was kind of rebooted to his factory settings or whatever, he could be that person. But if Zachariah gave the memories back then he couldn't be.)

I think that the writers are relying on the angels to do a lot of what the brothers would have previously done for each other. And yeah, Zachariah doesn't really care how it comes out. He doesn't have that capacity, traitor or not.

When has anyone but Sam and Bobby looked out for Dean, really? So while it was callous and heartless and all that I don't really see a way around some force that is not Sam trying to snap Dean out of his depression. (The old Sam would have tried, and the new Sam probably laments that he can't... but... yeah. It just can't be Sam anymore.)

And in the end, Dean does need to be able to look beyond his brother. (In fact, if they're going to be on opposing sides in the apocalypse then the divide between the brothers actually serves both sides so Zachariah is absolutely playing one of them by stepping in. ;) )

*is intrigued*

Thanks for this. I... kind of spazzed near the beginning because UGH I am SO not looking forward to them dropping that particular anvil and then leaving us to have hiatus, but... this meta is awesome and you have left me intrigued rather than frustrated. Yay!

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'm glad you're intrigued rather than frustrated, because my own frustration is why I wrote it even though I'm supposed to be on hiatus and not thinking about fandomy stuff.

The thing about Zachariah that pissed me off is he gave it all back, and then just said, get over it. I mean, honestly, if Dean was a real person, he'd probably be hospitalized with depression and PTSD, and no place have I ever read that acceptable treatment is to sit the person down and say, "Get the fuck over it." Someone else on my flist mentioned the high suicide rate of vets returning from Iraq. That was just war. This is so much more. And you don't snap out of depression. I mean, I can see him making a valiant effort, but how's he going to get over it when he's trying to sleep and having nightmares or when he has flashbacks? He's just supposed to smile and shrug it off? Really, if that's what people expect of him, then I'd personally let the world end, because people aren't worth the effort.

And I'm sorry you didn't know about the finale title. The summer is gonna suck so bad.

I get what you mean about do not want factor. That whole Anna and angel powers thing kinda threw me, but if it's any consolation that was more a read between the lines kind of spoiler and I think people were jumping the gun a little by stating it as fact. As for the lucifer thing, I dunno. I think it was always apparent to me that the seals would run out, and now that we know there's trouble brewing in the angel camps, I don't think there's any way to stop them being broken. Lucifer was bound to show up eventually.

[samidha.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. With one more season to go there was no way to avoid dear old Lucy ;) but I merely twitch over the timing!

I mean it's perfect and terrible at once, OMG! :P

And I *so agree* re: the whole PTSD, depression, etc. thing... I got into a whole debate the other day with someone in an ep reaction post where they were like "WHY CAN'T WE HAVE AWESOME DEAN BACK" and I, the Sam!girl, was defending Dean while SHE was defending SAM and it was just so... insane and I thought of you and your post(s) on exactly WHY we cannot have the old Dean back and anyone who's like "OMG what a whiner" is being ridiculous...

I mean, it sucks, but I guess I just "got" that for the purposes of pacing and NOT driving the audience crazy with angst to the point that it's so dark and hopeless they can't watch anymore, there has to be some kind of turning point where things move upward at least a little bit, again.... Otherwise, for a lot of people, Show stops being enjoyable at all and becomes a chore.

And I think that, by trying to tackle Dean's epic (justifable!) angst and realizing how massive it is, the writers have kinda let themselves get stuck in a corner and have been borderline at the point of driving viewers crazy with the angst.

Not saying I could do epically better--I think it's all difficult territory to fathom, much less write well.

[captcrashsc.livejournal.com]

Darn you...you made me think and post my own thoughts...lol.

*squishes*

[tru-faith-lost.livejournal.com]

Haha, I'm sorry.

*smishes*

[deangirl1.livejournal.com]

Wow. That's a lot of thinking! My brain hurts for you... I really like the idea of Dean being the vessel for Lucifer -- and I totally can't believe I just said that! Cuz. yeah. check out my username... I like the thought of that being the purpose heaven had in mind for him so he could totally off Lucifer from the inside. It would make sense, then, for Uriel to want Dean dead if he was going to host Lucifer only to kill him -- I know, I kinda modified your thinking a bit -- but heck! You've totally got me going here!!!
Great ideas... though I do like the idea of Anna giving Dean angel powers...

[odezza.livejournal.com]

Bravo to you. Dean as Lucifer has cross my mind in the past but I can never gather my thought well enough like you did. This is very well constructed and point out many thing that I miss.


Recently, I've discussed with my friend and she seem to go with Dean as Lucifer too, for the surprise factor alone. And Sam as Lucifer seem to be too obivious at this point. So if Dean turn out to be Lucifer's vessel, or Lucifer himself who's been dissapeared for so long. It will be a major twist. And above all, it will take everything that has been said in the past into a totally different light.


Like Castiel's chat with Dean at the end of episode 8. From sharing some personal heart to heart talk with Dean, to subconsciously asking for some guidance about his doubt from the first fallen. But I don't think Castiel know who Dean really is, or will be.


Wasn't there another thing the demon Casey said? About there was something about Dean that was charming. Charming for the devil? Interesting.


And wouldn't it be completly ironic? That the most obedient son, who have no sense of self worth, devote his life to save people/human, and at the moment think of himself as 'weak' - turn out to be the most rebellious, prideful, humanity hater, and powerful one. And if we go with Milton, the daddy issue fit well with both Lucifer and Dean too.

[odezza.livejournal.com]

Also, I'm on board with Zachariah as the traitor. Him being Castiel's boss matchs Anna's suspect about some higer up gave fault orders. And his attitude was closer to Uriel. His word of choice are suspicious too... 'After the unfortunate situation with Uriel.' And 'Get my ducks in a row.' Both of this can mean 2 ways.


There was something Uriel said that had me wonder. Especialy now we know he was the traitor. When he threatened Dean to hand them Anna, he said Dean was replaceable. He might just be bluffing, considering now we know the angels need Dean to stop whatever they want him to stop.
But now we also know that they can mind wipe and place new memory to whoever. So it make me wonder if the 'replaceable' Uriel was talking about means 'replace Dean with new persona' to suit their demand. But then again they didn't do it. They just manipulated him to 'see the light' their way. So it was clear that they need him to be 'himself' to do everything he was destinated to do. And how contradict is that?


At this point I like to think that, if hell have 2 camps, one follow Azazel's plan and other follow Lilith's plan. May be Heaven is the same. One that are the believer like Castiel and others angels that say 'no' to Uriel, and other that twist the prophecy for their own benefit and want to free Lucifer like Uriel and some higher up. If so, the 'You will do everything you're destinated to do. All of it.' speech is very questionable. Depend on whatever Zacheriah is good or bad.

[julorean.livejournal.com]

Oh, I do love the way you think! The spoilers are juicy, yet ultimately infuriating. Like those greek prophecies.

I've been in love with the idea of Lucifer!Dean for ages. It would such a clever thing to do. There's been so much BLAHBLAH SAM IS EVOL BLAH BLAH, I'd love to see it totally turned around and Dean being Lucifer's vessel. And perhaps because he's the one to stop, he's not possessed entirely - he fights it, breaking through now and then to thwart his plans. Stop it from behind enemy lines, like you said. In the end, he's the strongest one of all (take that, Sam!), the only one who could handle being Lucifer's vessel.

If Dean is the intended vessel for Lucifer, then it could have been referring to his humanity, OR it could have been meant to imply that he left his "better half" or his intended partner. Eeeee, yes plz! Either one would be awesome.

Oh, and I didn't think the tattoos would work on Lucifer. Lower class demons, yeah, but no way that little thing could work against power of that magnitude.

I'm with you on Ruby. Obviously she's plotting something. Interesting idea, that the addiction could be psychological, I have suspected she put a spell on him, make him think he needed her to train up the powers. The mind is quie a powerful thing.

I like your take on Azazel's plans. They make sense. Would be fitting, coming full circle and tying it into a bow. The endgame is fulfilled, but the outcome ends up positive.

Man, I'd love it so much if they actually did something that awesome. Lucifer!Dean, mmmm, sexy. Okay, maybe it's cuz I'm shallow. XP

Or Kripke is gonna turn around and give us something none of us even thought of. I wouldn't put it past him, that bastard. :P

[eido.livejournal.com]

julorean gave me the heads up about this meta and I really enjoyed reading it. I've been banging around Lucifer!Dean (http://community.livejournal.com/spn_heavymeta/189895.html) crackspec/ideas myself, but no where near as well put together as yours above. My ideas were slightly different in that I was considering the Anna option (as opposed to possession) re: Lucifer in human form.

One bone of contention though is about Azazel. We have no confirmation in canon as of yet that Azazel was a fallen angel. It certainly true that in a lot of the traditional demonic lore Azazel was a fallen angel and it's possible someone could still mention him as such, but we don't know for sure. If Azazel was a fallen, I admit I think it is a little bizarre why none of the angels have mentioned it and/or why or how Dean could kill him (if only angels can kill other angels, unless fallen go by different rules). Sure, Dean used the Colt, but would the Colt work on an angel? It's true Ruby's Knife isn't the same as the Colt, but the Knife didn't work on Cas. KC!Ruby does refer to herself as "a little fallen angel" around when she first showed up, but there's no telling if she was being literal with that. So far, all demons we've seen seem to be of human origin.

However, I'd say it would intrigue me very much if Azazel is revealed to have been an angel once and, by that rule, only another angel should have been able to kill him, but Dean obviously managed it. Now is that because he used the magic Colt that can kill anything (and John or Sam could have easily been in Dean's place) or because Dean may be more than human and has been all along?

Something else I've wondered is if Kripke intends to go the direction of a typically evil Lucifer, like an Azazel 2.0 or Lilith 2.0, but a lot more powerful. Or would Kripke subvert that and go less traditional (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SatanIsGood) (two examples, maybe a Lucifer as he appears in Sandman, of which Kripke is a fan (http://www.winchesterbros.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=772&Itemid=110), or as he's depicted in His Dark Materials). Speaking strictly from SPN, Uriel & angels like him and Casey (demon in "Sin City") being Lucifer fans doesn't paint a very pleasant picture. Nor does the fact Lucifer's rising apparently brings Hell with him. Then again, whose to say that Uriel or Casey really know who or what Lucifer is or was truly about? At least nowadays, presumably eons later after he fell? Maybe Lucifer has changed? Casey flat-out admits that no demon has ever even met him. Maybe Uriel never really did know him, putting a bunch of attributes on him that happens to justify, I'd guess, his own very obvious hatred for humanity? Made Lucifer their idol, but very possibly could be dismayed when they actually meet the guy (or meet him again)? Like someone who obsessively fawns over some celebrity, putting them on this ludicrously high pedestal, while never truly knowing the person they really are. Upon meeting them in person is inevitably disappointed when they don't live up to the fantasy. In other words, I'm wondering if the Lucifer fanboys may be headed straight for a Be careful what you wish for scenario. What would be one thing that would sorely disappoint the angelic Lucifer fanboys (if Uriel is anything to go by)? Lucifer is a human and/or he has no problem with humanity or at least not anymore, even if he might have had once.

ETA. There could be some evidence that could support Kripke possibly taking a less than traditional take on Lucifer via "The Monster at the End of this Book". Considering the title of 4.22, if we call Lucifer the "Monster" and the "Book" is this season? Maybe Lucifer may not be what people are expecting him to be, what everyone is afraid he's going to be (and others, want him to be)? Maybe, like Grover (lol!), may not be all that bad at all... or he is, just not to whom you'd expect Lucifer to be (not only based on tradition, but the impression one would get from human-hating Uriel or demon Casey)?

[spacemonkey-699.livejournal.com]

Body swap would be interesting. And when I say interesting, I mean great fodder for slash fic. Ahem. Although I would love to see Misha and Jensen playing that out. For some reason, I could believe Misha to be a good mimic.

I'm gonna ignore the rest of the ETA'S. I'm over theoried right now and desperately need some sleep, and just know if I read any more theories, I won't sleep tonight. OH FINALE, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO US?

Bobby can't die, though. He JUST CAN'T. MY LITTLE HEART CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE PAIN.